Potential owner P323

[jwstahl]

Hello,
I am seriously considering purchasing a well-maintained 1982 P323.  I've been a one-design racer for many years, but I'm retiring in a few months and will finally have time to do some cruising in LI Sound & Narragansett Bay.  I have concerns about the P323's ability in light air, which is common around here in the summer.  Also, my prospective P323 does not have lines led aft - I expect to be single-handing a fair amount, and I wonder what experienced owners think about this.  Finally, there are no inboard jib leads - wouldn't they help sailing this boat upwind?
Thanks in advance for any advice.
John

[selene]

Hi John,

Welcome to the forum - you'll probably get totally subjective feedback here!

I think when evaluating a P323 you need to be aware of what she is, and what she ain't.  The P323 is a well-built, well-designed, moderately heavy coastal cruiser.  Her weight and design makes for a seakindly movement which inspires confidence in heavy wind/weather.  She is also surprisingly roomy for her size and age. However, these characteristics means she is no racer. As I am sure you know, in a boat it's all about tradeoffs.

Light air - there was another thread about that, can't find it for now - well, the P323 weighs ~13klbs, so she is heavy compared to many modern boats, and the speed will depend on your sail selection.  Under 5 knot wind is a challenge - she won't make her own airflow like some boats near me!  But as you get above 5 knots, I find she moves along fine - but perhaps I am patient?

Lines aft - well, that is a very subjective debate.  Some P323 have their lines led aft, some don't.  Some people think it is a big deal, others prefer the simplicity of lines forward.  Personally I am wandering around the bow often enough that it is no big deal (I often singlehand). And I appreciate simplicity and ease of hauling on lines.

Upwind performance - well, if there is one thing which lets the boat down, it is upwind performance.  Two factors come into play (IMHO) - the position of the jib leads/cars, and the shallow keel.  Consequently, she does not point as well as, say, a modern Catalina, however hard I try.  I take part in the local "beer can" races, and broad reach/running we move very well, and can keep up with or beat many modern boats of a similar size.  But if we have to beat..well, it's not pretty, I must be honest.

As I said upfront, that's the penalty you pay for a stronger rig - and an older design.  Sometimes it's a pain - other times it comes in useful, like when a month or so we went in to an anchorage and settled down, wondering why the other boats were waiting...an extra 2' on the keel helped them get there faster, but they had to wait for more tide to get in!

Have a look around this site, there have been other questions from potential owners; also have a look at http://www.rollinscs.com/boatpages/choosepage.htm  and http://www.chessie.com/boat/, both of whom have excellent sites on their 323s, and participate in this group.

Good luck!

[Libations Too]

Hi John,

I think Selene's comments about the 323 and light air sailing are spot on. I would add that the 3-blade cruising prop is not going to help if light air sailing is the objective.

As for windward performance I think his first comment carries the day: she's a moderately heavy coastal cruiser...roomy and well built. And I would add that she has a shoal draft that helps greatly in poking around shallow bays, but it does have a downside when going to weather. A comparison to a boat with a deep fin keel, a spade rudder, and of light displacement going to weather is  a bit of an apples/oranges comparison. In my experience, the 323 will underperform the fin/spade/light boat in lighter air but as the sea state changes the 323 can drive through seas that knock a lighter boat all around. At some point neither boat is sailing well and the fun meter starts to drop. As Selene pointed out, reaching or downwind the 323 holds her own quite well.

With my sails (120 percent jib and 95 percent jib) the ideal conditions are in the 8 to 20 knot range. At the lower end of this range the larger head sail really shines but she still is no race boat (especially with the cruising prop). I think others on this site sail regularly with larger headsails and I hope that they add their thoughts here for your consideration.

As the breeze gets into the 17 to 20 knot range my smaller headsail and a reef can greatly improve both performance and enjoyment. Going to weather I believe that the shoal draft is a significant contributor to leeway...more so than sheeting angles. I have found that reefing early, limiting heel, and not sailing too high (pinching) can all improve windward VMG for the 323.

Possibly the most important factor in evaluating the boat is to clearly define for yourself your likely cruising ground, associated wind and sea state, and current challenges. If you need shoal draft (and don't want a centerboard boat) the 323 can answer quite nicely. If your goal is coastal cruising in a 32-foot boat, the 323 really shines. If you need to start each sail by heading to weather or against a current in light air, the calculus is different.

You didn't mention your price range, but I think the 323 offers exceptional value in a coastal cruiser. As you will soon see, those of us on this site who sail the 323 regularly have developed an understanding of what she can do well and what she can't. And with that understanding comes refined expectations. I think that is probably true for any boat. Good luck in your search!

[Libations Too]

John,

I forgot to add my 2 cents about lines led to the cockpit. When I bought my 323 leading the lines to the cockpit was one of the first changes that I was going to make. But then I started sailing her as she was (slab reefing at the mast) and learned that it was not hard to do at all. This boat has a relatively small main, a gentle manner and, when one heaves-to, she bobs along quite comfortably. I have a pad eye at the base of the mast on the aft side and when reefing in high wind and high waves I wear a harness, clip in, and simply make myself comfortable on the cabin top as I tie in the reef. Having good topping lift control from the mast is a key to this approach. In lighter air and moderate sea state I dispense with heaving to and simply ease the main enough to lower the sail while the jib and auto pilot keep her moving.

If you want to fly a spinnaker without a dodger, lines led aft can allow one to drop the spinnaker down the companionway without going forward. I don't fly a spinnaker and I do have a dodger so I have never experimented with this approach.

I am sure you will get lots of opinions about this question but my experience led me away from this rigging approach.

[selene]

<sigh> Wish I was as eloquent as Richard!  But he gave me another reminder - an autopilot is a great thing to have, I'd say almost indispensable if you want to solo.  Mine is electrical (hydraulic) and installed below decks (out of the elements and unobtrusive).  You mentioned you sailed a one-designer - which implies racing; clearly and autopilot isn't something often seen on racing boats, but for this type of sailing it makes life so much easier...

[jwstahl]

Well!  Thanks very much for all the instructive replies - I must admit I didn't expect so much thoughtful advice so quickly.  I've read a few other threads on this site since my original post, and I see that this is an extremely helpful forum - another advantage to buying a P323 that I did not appreciate.
Yes, the boat has an autopilot, as well as helm-mounted chartplotter w/integrated radar (lots of fog here,) both of which I think are essential for single-handing in this area.  Electrical wiring was completely re-done within the past 4 years and a recent survey is quite positive.
The tip about the seakindly motion is important - I suppose I could try the halyards, reefing system, vang, outhaul, etc. as they are, and lead lines aft later if I thought it necessary.  Might save some money, and increase cocktail cruise suntanning space.  The harness belay padeye is a great piece of advice - thanks.
Has anyone tried a 2-bladed fixed prop on a p323?  My prospective boat has a Volvo MD11C 23hp diesel, which may be slightly undersized using the 2 hp/1000lb rule.  Anyway, aligning a 2-bladed prop vertically might help performance under sail (old pre-folding-prop racing procedure.)
I won't be racing this boat seriously - I've got my one-design for that - but a non-responsive boat is no fun for me.  New England base PHRF for this boat is 174, comparable to an Ericson 32 and quite a bit quicker than a Cape Dory 31.  Do folks find these estimates accurate?
Will the P323 tack through 90 degrees or less?
Lots of questions.  I may be pushing my welcome.  Anyway, thanks for any consideration and advice.
John     

[Dave]

My boat has the Volvo MD11C. We have been caught is some pretty nasty storms both inshore and 50 miles out. It has never had a problem pushing the boat through any weather at hull speed. Keeping the passages around the cylinders cleaned is a whole different story.

[Libations Too]

Will the P323 tack through 90 degrees or less?

I hope others chime in with their answers to this question. The simple answer from me with my boat, sails, prop, and sailing skill (or lack thereof), is no. At 50 to 60 degrees apparent I can make good progress all day long in breezes above about 8 knots. As the wind speed increases I can usually point higher but as I approach 48 to 50 apparent I begin to struggle to maintain VMG. I can sometimes sail higher but VMG usually suffers. In a good breeze with little chop I can sometimes get to 45 apparent but most of the time I sail in the range of 50 to 55 apparent. When the breeze gets light I need to fall off to maintain boat speed...it is in these conditions where I think the 3-blade cruising prop is a real liability. On the other hand, in these same conditions I can often "cruise" at 3 to 4 knots with the engine (MD11C) running at idle speed and the 3-blade prop taking big bites to move us along.

[Dolce_Vita]

Richard,

  Your experiences mimic mine almost exactly.  It took me a couple of seasons to learn that the best VMG was at less than the highest the boat could point.

  I also found that the boat likes to sail "on her feet", so I tend to reef early.  At 15 kts, I put in the first reef on the main, or reduce the (roller furling) jib a little, or both, depending on sea state.  At 18 kts wind, with both sails reefed, the boat will still do 6 - 7 kts and the crew is much more comfortable than if we were burying the rail.

[rbrtfeld]

I have the MD 11c with the 17 inch 3 bladed prop. It does dragalot in light air. I ended up puttting in a 15 inch Maxi-Prop feathering prop. It helped alot. the only bad thing is the cost.  If you decide to get one, ask for a boat show discount. That will save you two or three hundred. I hate paying full retail for anything. Good luck

[Frayed Knot]

Have the same motor and a 2 blade prop.  In 4 to 6 foot seas it will push the boat @ 3 or 4 knots with no sails up.  Go for it, I love mine...

[Rusty Pelican]

On up wind performance here are my 2 cts worth.
Step:
1  Soda blast the bottom add barrier coat the bottom. I prefer Sea Hawk Tuff Stuff.
2  Sand barrier coat to 60 grit, I have friends that wet sand to 1200 grit, not me,  1 coat of ablative bottom paint.
3. Go sailing, and every 45 days have a diver scrub the bottom.
4. Sails, I have a light 140, heavy 140 tri radial , a light 170 deck sweeper and an asym tri radial chute
5. Match sail selection to current wind conditions, and you will go to windward like a boss.
6. MOST IMPORTANT at end of season repeat step 2   

[Wandering_bill]

John,
I'm a new owner, just having bought 'Wanderer' last September. I've been thrilled to own her thus far for many of the reasons already touched on here: roominess for 32', comfortable motion, affordability, and sailing characteristics.
We have a new fully battened main with a stack pack which makes sail handling very very easy. It is also installed with a "strong track" on the mast so the sail goes up with barely having to use the winch and drops right down on herself.
The boat came with an a-symmetric spinnaker which we were just playing around with in some very light airs the other day - 3-8knts. We were able to point pretty high with the chute up in those light winds and saw boat speeds in the 3-4knt range. Not blistering, but pretty damn good for a 6.5 ton boat!
As sun set, the wind filled In a little to a steady 8knts or so and going upwind with the 120ish jib we were hitting those 4knt speeds again.
I bought this boat after getting the advice of a good friend and yacht broker/delivery skipper with 40 years of experience sailing all over the world on all types of boats. He had delivered a 323 15 years ago and it stood out in his mind of all the boats he has been on since as a great sailing and comfortable boat for the size and money.

-Bill
Www.sailingwanderer.com

[jwstahl]

Thanks again for all the advice.  I'm getting a pretty good picture of the boat's many strengths and few weaknesses.
One final question (which may strike some as weird) - has anyone worked out polars on this boat?  I'm not expecting Etchells-type close-windedness, but I know I'll be sailing upwind quite a bit given our prevailing southwesterlies around here.
My wife's uncle once told me that gentlemen don't beat to windward - I guess he had me figured out.
John

[Frayed Knot]

Here is what I have.