Author Topic: Rope Halyard  (Read 194 times)

Bill1188

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Rope Halyard
« on: January 27, 2021, 08:21:38 PM »
Time to switch out the old wire to rope jib halyard. Too cold for me to go measure anything in Michigan. What is length I need and best diameter? Pearson 323.

Dolce_Vita

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Re: Rope Halyard
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2021, 11:01:28 AM »
When I converted mine, I used 3/8" VPC.  Strength wise, you could go smaller, but it would be difficult to handle.  And the hybrid VPC is a good compromise between hi-tech/low-stretch and cost.

Don't remember the exact length I used, but with a mast height of 45', you're already looking at 90'.  I'd round it up to an even 100' to allow for plenty of tail.

Be sure and replace the sheaves while you're at it.  Zephyrwerks (https://www.zephyrwerks.com/) will build custom delryn sheaves with bronze bushings to your exact measurements for a reasonable price. 
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 11:05:22 AM by Dolce_Vita »
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Alma

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Re: Rope Halyard
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2021, 05:02:10 PM »
So you still have those measurements Ed?

I'm looking at replacing my main halyard and on-the-fence about wire/rope or synthetic.

If I could get new sheeves in anticipation I may switch to lose weight aloft.

Thanks.

Dolce_Vita

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Re: Rope Halyard
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2021, 12:10:37 PM »
Took a while to dig them out.  Here's what I submitted on their form:

Question    Answer
Type of Boat (i.e. "Baltic40")    Pearson 323
Application (i.e. masthead, boom, etc.)    Masthead, external halyards
How did you find us?    Referral by Geoff Kloster
New sheave diameter    2.505 "
New sheave width    .493
Pin diameter    .370
Line size    3/8
Wire size (if applicable)    
Grooved for    Rope
Groove depth    5/32"
Quantity this size    4
Quantity and size of pins    
Comments    These are for a conversion from wire/rope halyards to all-rope. I'm a bit concerned about the side clearance of the sheaves because it's already very close, and the masthead is getting repainted with 3 coats of Awlgrip. My slot measurements of the bare metal masthead are:
Fwd Port Bot .554"
Fwd Port Top Not accessible to measure
Fwd Stbd Bot .527"
Fwd Stbd Top .568"
Aft Port Bot .555"
Aft Port Top .549
Aft Stbd Bot .533
Aft Stbd Top .549
   
          
 



 
@(^.^)@  Ed
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Alma

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Re: Rope Halyard
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2021, 07:07:39 PM »
Thanks Ed. As detailed and accurate as ever.

Is there any reason to believe mine would be any different?

Would you order based on these dimensions?


Dolce_Vita

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Re: Rope Halyard
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2021, 11:40:56 AM »
Boy, tough question.

Pearson was known to use and re-use whatever they had on hand.  Thus, different models built around the same time often shared hardware in common (cabinet latches, cleats, running rigging, standing rigging, etc) , and same models built years apart could have significant differences in the same hw.  I don't know if they ever used more than one spar type on the 323, which would completely change the masthead fitting.

On the other hand, our two boats were built pretty close together.  Mine is hull #42, built in Dec of 1976.  Since the 1977 model year began in August '76, this means they built 42 hulls in only 5 months! Since yours is hull #74, there's only 32 hulls between us, so I'm guessing yours was built around April or May of '77, still in the 1977 model year.

This would suggest that we have the same spar cross section, and the same masthead fitting. I've attached masthead photos for comparison.

If they're the same, I would expect the sheaves to fit.  Even if the mastheads were hand-built, I'm sure the sheaves would have been an off-the-shelf item for them, and the mastheads would be built to fit them.

When I redid our mast, I was concerned with the close fitting of the sheaves in the slot, and worried that three layers of Awlgrip (plus primer) would build up enough to cause them to bind, but they fit perfectly.

The difference was night & day.  The old aluminum sheaves were seized on their pins, and rubbed the sides of the slot.  This, combined with stiff wire halyards, meant that both sails had to be pulled down, and it took some muscle.

The new, slippery Delryn sheaves, with fresh bronze bushings and stepped sides, combined with new VPC halyards, allowed either sail to fall to the deck when the halyard was released.

In the end, its your call.  My OCD would probably make me wait until I had the old sheaves in-hand to measure, just to be sure, but that's just me. I tend to overthink everything.

EDIT:
In order to get the seized pins out, I had to use a pin punch and hammer.  The spinnaker beak blocks thru-access to the forward pin, and I had to drill an access hole in the beak (visible in the third photo) in order to drive the pin out.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2021, 11:51:29 AM by Dolce_Vita »
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Alma

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Re: Rope Halyard
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2021, 12:51:01 PM »
Thanks Ed- Those photos sure look like my sheeve box.

I made this photo with a 420MM lens last year from the ground. It is such a long perspective it looks like the Windex will foul the antenna- it does not.

The 'flasher' sheeve and halyard have since been replaced LoL.
The block parted and the Flasher ended up in the sea-

You can see the 10-32 cap-head screws I installed with Heli-coils 20 years ago locating the masthead box to the mast. They came out like the day they were installed.

My DaD had brought a bucket of surplus aerospace quality stainless fasteners of all types home from the RCA AED skunkworks in 1970 where he had his own little fab shop.

It was my job to sort them and I HATED it.

He told me I'd learn to appreciate these fasteners when I was older and boy was he right. They are fantastic quality and I use them to this day. They are so fine the lock washers are barely visible. They are chamfered so perfectly they thread like butter.

When I installed my NASA Clipper wind instruments last season it was only 4 trips up the mast on webbing ladder to measure and install an aluminum bracket I made at home for the wireless wind vane using a couple slightly longer cap screws (on the other side).

I believe my sheeves are still turning on their bearings and the axels are free as well since I was able to lube them when installing the wind instruments.

I'd like to get another season out of this main halyard since I've got to replace the cabin top handrails and install a new solid-state boat speed transducer and its brainbox this Spring. The halyard's splice is not safe for a bosons chair. Its steel cable is on the winch once the main is up so that is secure.

Its been 18 years at least since I bought that rope to wire halyard. They seem very expensive now.

What is the upside of all rope halyards besides price and a little less weight aloft?

Thanks again Ed!
« Last Edit: February 10, 2021, 12:55:35 PM by Alma »

Dolce_Vita

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Re: Rope Halyard
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2021, 02:04:44 PM »
Thanks Ed- Those photos sure look like my sheeve box.

I agree.



...I'd like to get another season out of this main halyard since I've got to replace the cabin top handrails and install a new solid-state boat speed transducer and its brainbox this Spring. The halyard's splice is not safe for a bosons chair. Its steel cable is on the winch once the main is up so that is secure. ...

I always went up on a fresh line on the spinaker halyard, with a Jumar ascender handle riding on the line portion of one of the other halyards as a safety.  By carefully stiching the ends together , it is possible to replace the old spin halyard with a new one without having to go up the mast.  The spin halyard is also terminated a little higher than the others, allowing you to get an inch or two higher at the top.


Its been 18 years at least since I bought that rope to wire halyard. They seem very expensive now.

What is the upside of all rope halyards besides price and a little less weight aloft?

I see nothing but upsides. In addition to price and weight aloft there's:

  • Less friction in the system
  • Rope doesn't chafe the paint off the mast like a wire
  • Rope doesn't wear down the mast winches like a wire
  • No splice
  • Stronger than cable
  • Possible to swap "end for end" to even out wear
  • Easy to obtain replacement "on the road" if needed
  • On the 323, allows for the possibility of converting to internal halyards.  This would give you two extra halyards for hoists or emergency replacements

Modern ropes have eclipsed wire halyards in every way I can think of.  I'm partial to New England Ropes' VPC in 3/8" (10 mm).  This size is overkill for strength, but is about the smallest size you can comfortably handle by hand.  Anything smaller is hard to grip.

https://www.neropes.com/products/performance/product/detail/vpc/
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Alma

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Re: Rope Halyard
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2021, 04:42:58 PM »
Thanks Ed.

Since the existing sheeves handle the rope side of my wire/rope halyards with their shape why would I need to swap out good working shelves.

Wouldn't the new halyard roll in the shelves like the rope half does now? Is the 1/4" size smaller that big of a deal?

Thanks again,

Gene

Dolce_Vita

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Re: Rope Halyard
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2021, 02:16:26 PM »
I don't honestly know. I deferred to the expertise of others on this point.  The folks at Zepherwerks were pretty strong about getting the radius and depth of the groove to match the line used. The prevailing concern seemed to be that line sat at least halfway into the groove in order to minimize the chance that it could ride up out of the sheave and jam in the box.

I suspect that the sheaves used for wire/rope halyards would cause additional wear on the line as compared to a "rope only" sheave.  Researching other's opinions on various forums, the prevailing concern was that wire is very hard on aluminum sheaves, leaving the surface very rough, and this roughness would accelerate wear on the rope.  I know that my old sheaves were indeed torn up pretty good (see attached).   

So, a lot of speculation but not much hard evidence, one way or the other.
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Alma

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Re: Rope Halyard
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2021, 10:06:18 PM »
I'm curious about mine. I don't remember any roughness when I cleaned them up.

Maybe I give them a try and keep an eye on the line.


Dolce_Vita

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Re: Rope Halyard
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2021, 02:33:12 PM »
Sounds like a plan.

We sort of hijacked this thread.  I hope the original poster, Bill1188, got the answers he needed..
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Re: Rope Halyard
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2021, 11:34:11 AM »
Halyards on sale at MAURIPRO!

They have halyards specifically rigged for Pearson 323 too!

Alma

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Re: Rope Halyard
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2021, 11:35:47 AM »
Length-

Bill1188

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Re: Rope Halyard
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2021, 08:04:37 PM »
I did get the answer I was looking for. Last spring I replaced the sheaves as the wire portion of the halyard had dug a groove in the metal and got jammed. New sheaves can be used with either wire or rope. I'm electing to go with rope to avoid the metal on metal wear.