Pearson Yachts Forum
Pearson Boats - Common Systems => Ports & Hatches => Topic started by: Libations Too on December 25, 2014, 12:39:28 PM
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Best wishes to all for Happy Holidays and great sailing adventures in the New Year!
It would be great to hear of plans for your sailing adventures and boat projects for 2015! For Libations that includes a two week cruise to Monterey Bay and resealing my two starboard fixed ports...a project that I have been putting off for too long. And several shorter overnight Bay cruises as we find time and energy.
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And Happy Holidays to you too.
I rebedded one of my fixed ports using various sites for information discussed previously, with the Catalina repair kit. Disassembly, cleanup and dryfitting went very smoothly; reassembly not so much. I learned some things others had not mentioned:
1) I used a fair amount of the sealant - perhaps too much, but voids were what caused some of my my leaks. However as the port compressed, it made a big mess as it squeezed out, and was difficult to clean up, So wear old trousers and use a groundsheet with a container for cleanup towels as it sticks voraciously to the P323 nonskid.
2) It really helps to mark clearly the orientation of the glass - which side in, fwd vs. aft. You may think it is obvious as you dryfit it, but as you actually refit it, it can be confusing - especially as you struggle with item 3 below!
3) I completely underestimated the force required to fit the frame over the strip, with the sealant in place. I tried to do it by hand - it was so tough I was convinced I had the glass oriented incorrectly (see point 2). In the end I used clamps and gently compressed the two sides of the frame together squeezing out excess sealant (which required a good supply of paper towels to keep under control - see point 1). I also needed a toothpick to ensure the lip of the strip did not distorted/get pushed under the frame.
4) As the strip compresses, and sealant oozes out, the strip stretches may need to be trimmed for a tight fit (It worked fine when dry assembling, but became too long when "live"). I cannot claim to have mastered this - perhaps it is best to do in steps - compress, release, trim, try the fit again.
5) I bought some Butyl tape from an RV store. It was not formulated for California - the viscosity was too low, and in summer it began to run/drip! I had to remove and rebed the port with Butyl Tape supplied by this guy:
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/butyl_tape. I have mentioned the site before, great articles, and he has begun selling the formulation he uses. Seems to be working much better. The lesson here: Not all "Butyl Tape" is made equal.
I found it frustrating reassembling the port, but was very happy with the finished product in terms of a watertight seal.
I hope this helps - please let us know how it goes, I am sure there are things I could have done better, and perhaps between us we can (virtually) develop an optimal process!
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Thanks Selene! One quick question (not trying to hijack my own thread): did you repaint the frames? Or perhaps had them anodized?
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I was feeling a bit poor to have them reanodized. I simply sprayed them with high-temperature matt black paint, which I then coated with a layer of wax. Barely acceptable - lasts a few years, no more. I use the same approach on the opening cabin-top hatches, which were looking especially patchy when I got the boat,
Since there is so much black anodized material on the boat, I am always concerned about doing the work piecemeal - and overwhelmed by the idea of doing it all! But it still bugs me, especially the big cleats which would look awesome if a solid black.
To get us back on track - Happy New Year!!
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I was feeling a bit poor to have them reanodized. I simply sprayed them with high-temperature matt black paint, which I then coated with a layer of wax. Barely acceptable - lasts a few years, no more. I use the same approach on the opening cabin-top hatches, which were looking especially patchy when I got the boat,
Since there is so much black anodized material on the boat, I am always concerned about doing the work piecemeal - and overwhelmed by the idea of doing it all! But it still bugs me, especially the big cleats which would look awesome if a solid black.
To get us back on track - Happy New Year!!
When I rebuilt my hatches a few years ago, I took them to an automotive custom paint shop and had them stripped and powdercoated. They look great and are so durable that they'll probably outlast the boat.
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And a Very Happy New Year to you all ! In the summer of 2014 I did my first extended trip with Chelsea-500 statute miles on Lake Michigan from Muskegon, MI to Gladstone, MI crossing the lake twice-in fog both ways. I didn't know fog and wind could exist at the same time. Now I know.. Radar was installed shortly there after as I plan on an even longer trip the summer of 2015 again on Lake Michigan but going to Beaver Island on the north end of the lake.
The best to all !
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Chelsea, that sounds like great fun!
My first keel boat sailing was on Lake Michigan back in the 70s. I sailed out of Michigan City on a college buddy's family boat. I crewed on one Chicago to Mackinac race and, as an adult, think it would be great to cruise the Great Lakes...especially the Apostle Islands, Upper Green Bay (where you were last summer), and the Manitou-Beaver Island chain. The islands in northern Lake Huron/Georgian Bay also look inviting!
Please share photos and a report on your cruise!
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Selene, do you recall which Catalina repair kit you purchased? I want to rebed my two starboard fixed ports and am ordering parts now. I have ordered the butyl tape per your suggestion and am about to order the Catalina gasket kit...but which one? I think I saw in another post that you used the C-22 kit...is that correct? If I recall my own rough measurements, I think 6-7 feet is enough for one port, which would suggest that the C-22 kit might be enough for all 4 ports. Does that sound right to you?
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Hi Richard,
The receipt says Aluminum Window Reseal Kit C-22, CP-25 (#D2130). I only did one window, but there was plenty of material left over - as I recall sufficient for all 4.
Good luck - we'll be interested to see how the experience goes for you.
Paul
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Thanks Selene!
I am not eager to begin this project but it has to be done. I'll probably write up a project summary at some point after the work is finished.
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I'm in line with this project too this spring. (Spring ??? WTF is that???)
Got a GoPro few weeks ago for the B'Day. Plan on documenting this and all projects on my VLOG.
Nice to hear about the extra material.
"Sub" Ed
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I finally started the rebedding project today on my aft, starboard fixed port.
After about 6 hours of work I was able to extract the port assembly and bring it home for clean up, painting, installation of new moulding, and reinstallation of the glass. The removal job was not too bad but I did need to work carefully from the inside and out to remove old foam caulk and a bead of silicone that had been applied the the space between the inner liner and outer cabin. A box knife, and a thin putty knife were my friends. Once I had removed most of the old caulk and silicone I could move the assembly up and down and found that I needed to move it up first so that I could push the bottom out, then go outside and pull the bottom and front of the port out first; then it slid out. Working alone probably made this more difficult than necessary but I worked slowly and carefully and all turned out well.
Two things that I noticed and wanted to ask others about (especially Alma and Selene who have been down this path before me):
1. I noticed that the "gap" between inner liner and outer cabin is nonexistent in many places and very small in others. This is definitely different than photos that I have seen of other boats where the gap may have been 1/4 to 3/8 wide. Based on this and the experience of others on this site, I am thinking that I will not fill the gap with epoxy. Perhaps a hardwood spacer? Any thoughts about this approach?
2. As Alma noted in another post, the cabin does have some camber to it while the port assembly does not. Selene, I ended up buying the butyl tape from Compass Marine as you did. Did you find that one layer of the butyl tape was sufficient to deal with the camber of the cabin? Does it make sense to use one layer in the middle and ramp up to two layers at either end to better accommodate the camber? Any thoughts?
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I have thoughts, but no great wisdom behind them :-)
My ports also had an inconsistent gap between liner and cabin. This is what made me think of filling with thickened epoxy - not a lot, but (to use a British term) belt and braces (i.e. extra secure). I think wooden spacers would work as well - or indeed nothing, as it originally was.
As for the butyl, I think you need to add enough so that, when compressed, the butyl fully fills the gap and squeezes out - the key is not to have any voids, or crevices water can penetrate. I don't think I doubled it up for the camber; as I recall it took a few strips to get complete coverage, which provided the excess I needed. The bigger issue for me was the fact that when the port was installed the hole was larger than the port - over 1/2" larger in places - and so (this may not have been the best approach) I forced more butyl into that gap.
As ever, dry fitting will give you good insights.
Careful about dropping butyl on the deck/nonskid; it can be a pain to clean off!
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Libations Too-Thanks for the detailed pix!
If mine appear like that I'm going to merely build up/fill in the voids with a healthy dose of "Marine-Tex" that I happen to have.
Make sure I saturate the existing liner/deck "glass" edges as needed.
I'm just looking to keep water out of the gap and fiberglass strands as not to migrate away, as opposed to any real structural integrity increase.
Any larger than what you experienced then perhaps I'll go with "cloth" saturated with epoxy.
Not looking forward to it, but it needs to be done. :-\
"Sub" Ed
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Ed, the Marine-tex sounds like a good, possible approach. Were you thinking of using the Marine-tex putty?
I also looked again at the Compass Marine site: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/nfm_port_lights&page=1
Though the application was for NFM ports, the Compass Marine site showed using both butyl tape and a polysulfide caulk. The idea of working from outside and folding a length of butyl tape over the edge of the cabin (thus covering the outer face of the cabin and partially filling the gap between the cabin and the port assembly) makes some sense to me...but actually fitting the port assembly into the opening ringed with butyl may be difficult if not impossible.; especially so since I think I'll need to slide it back and forth, up and down much as I did when removing it. Adding a polysulfide caulk outside of that on the face of the cabin would seem to help deal with the camber of the cabin. Plus, it sounds as though the polysulfide would be easier to clean up than the butyl.
I'm starting to imagine a big mess when things go back together.
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Yeah, I got some 2 oz kits leftover from other projects.
Travaco Marine-Tex Epoxy Putty Kit - 2 Ounce (http://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1|10918|2259972|2259992&id=149057)
Since it's "hidden" JB Cold Weld is the less expensive route as well as getting the job done too! 1/3 the price!
Epoxy, Marine Cold Weld, Dk Gry, 2 oz (http://www.zoro.com/i/G2821454/?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google_Shopping_Feed&gclid=CjwKEAjw9PioBRDdpqy0-ofG3DgSJAACe5NES5qKcZOrY-FspRIry6hoBWRII8kU5k4RARSdv9JTshoClTDw_wcB)
Just to finish off and seal the edges.
"Sub" Ed
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1. I noticed that the "gap" between inner liner and outer cabin is nonexistent in many places and very small in others. This is definitely different than photos that I have seen of other boats where the gap may have been 1/4 to 3/8 wide. Based on this and the experience of others on this site, I am thinking that I will not fill the gap with epoxy. Perhaps a hardwood spacer? Any thoughts about this approach?
The spacer and the filler serve two different purposes. The spacer(s) get you an even gap, while the epoxy filler is to keep any water intrusion out of the liner.
When I did the small opening port in the head, I too found a small gap that varied from 0 to 1/4". For spacers, I used hardwood craft sticks (aka popsickle stiks) laminated 2 thick. These were stuck in place with epoxy and then clamped to get a uniform gap all around.
(http://www.chessie.com/boat/photos/port-rebedding-06.jpg)
Once these set, I wetted down the whole gap, and filled it with thickened WEST G-Flex epoxy. Even with the epoxy thickened to the consistency of peanut butter, it tended to sag overhead, and I found it necessary to shore it in place with blue painters tape until it set.
(http://www.chessie.com/boat/photos/port-rebedding-10.jpg)
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Thanks Ed! Your repair looks great. I did see your photos on another post; I did not realize that you had similar, nonexistent gaps at some places. How did you choose the spacer thickness? Was it simply the thickness of the widest gap and then the smaller gaps were forced open to receive the spacer?
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Some progress photos below.
I cut 1/8-inch thick Doug fir shims to use as spacers between the inner liner and the outer cabin house. After dry fitting (and destroying some of the shims as I removed them) I realized that a rectangular cross section was not desired. I found that to fit well, they needed to be wedge shaped to accommodate the shape of the gap that I was trying to fill. The Doug fir worked easily with wood rasp and 100 grit sand paper. I inserted shims all the way around the port opening.
With unthickened epoxy, the liner/cabin house side walls (within the gap) and edges were coated with epoxy. After brushing epoxy onto both sides of the shim they were inserted into the gap and tapped into the gap creating a channel at least 1/4-inch deep. Clamps were applied and I retired home for a glass of wine! Many thanks to my wife who suited up to be my helper today...this job is definitely easier with two people working together.
Next step is to remove the clamps and fill the channel with Marine-tex epoxy putty. The aluminum frames are being powder coated and when finished, the fun of installing the glass can begin.
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Well- I just rebuilt my ports again. I guess the vinyl glazing channel is only good for about 13 years... Why it lasts indefinitely in shoreside storm windows is anyone's guess.
I really had a tough time removing the ports. I had used so much silicone bedding them last time, the channels in the extrusions were filled in places with silicone caulk. That prevented the hurky-jerky motion to lift the ports up and out. Last weekend I did the Port side. One day to remove the Port side ports and another day overhauling them and reinstalling them back at the boat yard. I also used Compass Butyl Caulk. I used two courses around the ports and another course at each end and another 2" section behind the seams. The caulk squeezed out nicely and was easy to clean up. I shall never again use silicone other than to bed plastic!
This last weekend I tackled the Starboard side pair. It took me three hours to get the caulk out of the channels and remove the aft port. I took my time and kept at it until the Starboard aft port was able to be pushed out of the cabin side. I pushed and POP- RIGHT OVER THE SIDE!!!!
I didn't bother running down the ladder to the boatyard's stone and mud- I really didn't give an earthworm's bottom what happened. It would've been the push I needed to 'glass up the sides and call NFM for new stainless opening ports.
Incredibly the window was UNDAMAGED!
The forward starboard side window came out in 20 minutes...
They are all back in and look good. We had our share of rain early this week- I'll go down tomorrow with a hose and see if they are watertight!
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Alma,
I understand your comments about silicone clogging the channels in the frame extrusions. Mine were the same and it seemed to take forever to get enough out of the way to move the frames up/down and eventually out.
I am curious about the application sequence for the butyl tape. Did you apply it to the frame or to the cabin house? Before or after putting the frame back into the cabin house opening? Any lessons-learned or suggestions for others?
Thanks,
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Personally I put it on the frame. After installation I also filled voids from the inside before I put the inside cover on.
No need to tighten the screws too tightly - the butyl will gently ooze out; I suggest loose-tighten the screws initially, return the next day and tighten more. Fortunately with the warm weather (sorry non-CA folks) it should settle in quickly. A plastic or blunt knife around the excess generally allows you to peel the excess off in a long strip.
I'd also be interested in Alma's experience.
Incidentally, I just finished rebedding the stanchions with butyl. Seems like the decks are balsa core, with ply in the structural areas (such as below the winches).
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Thanks Selene.
If I recall from your earlier post above, the openings on your 323 were large enough to insert the frames without the "hurky-jerky" up/down motion that Alma referenced. Am I correct?
On Libations (and apparently on Alma) the openings cut into the cabin house are actually smaller than the port frames and installation requires one to push the top and one side in first, then lift (or pry) the frame upwards and sideways (using the channel space in the frame itself to receive the cabin house) far enough that the lower edge of the frame will slip over the cabin house edge. Then the frame can be positioned and the screws on the inner retaining ring can be tightened. My fear is that with such a "hurky-jerky" motion any butyl tape applied to the frame would be damaged well before the final tightening of the inner retaining ring (or more likely in my case pulled free of either the frame or the cabin house as the frame is moved into its final position).
I certainly will follow your earlier advice about a dry fit before the butyl tap is applied. But I also am looking for hints about how others have solved this problem. I could always just get out my grinder or router and enlarge the openings but that is the last option I want to consider.
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Hi Richard - yes, I see, thanks for explaining; mine popped out without the "hurky-jerky". And I would also be very reluctant to rout the opening any bigger!
Weigh in, folks....
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I used two courses of Butyl on the frame flanges. Another third in a "c" shape around the ends and about 8" towards the center to make up for the cabinsides camber. With the extrusions cleaned of silicone I still struggled getting the frames in with a "dry fit" so I very carefully removed material from the apertures until a dry fit was easy enough (still hurky-jerky) that I wouldn't scrape away Butyl once the flanges had the courses of tape applied. I didn't need to fill voids as I had filled 'n faired the apertures with shims and thickened epoxy 13 years ago when I last did this renovation. When I epoxied the cabinsides to the hull liner I made that area slightly wider than it was with just the cabinsides and hull liner. This prevents me from getting the same amount of "play" in slipping the extrusions into the apertures. See Ed's photos to see how this upgrade is done. It is tedious but worth it to have a consistent thickness for the flanges and more importantly the clamping interior piece upon assembly. Here in Jersey last week I did need to apply some tension to the screws and re torque them after a day or so. They do NOT leak!
We have a beautiful High Pressure in the Mid-Atlantic this weekend for 323 work.
I'll be tied up in Hershey, PA for the world's biggest PORSCHE swap-meet!
Enjoy!
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Thanks Alma! Your experience and comments are quite helpful.
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I have finally finished this project. Thanks to all who have provided helpful comments.
I have posted a link to my project summary over on the "Hull and Deck Structure" page of this 323 Community Forum.