Messages

361

General Discussion / Re: Looking to Purchse a P 323

« on: August 31, 2011, 12:44:32 PM »

Last thought in this...the way I think about pricing is this: A pristine P323, new engine (<200hrs), new sails (<5yrs), newish electronics, new standing rigging, beautiful teak, etc etc may be worth $30K.  Well maintained, but aging a bit, mid-$20s.  In need of a lot of work, maybe $10K (well, I did see one with no engine a while back for $9K!)

When you reflect on this, it sort of makes sense.  A new engine installed by a boatyard is probably $10K; which I think of new sails, rigging, electronics, etc there is probably another $10-$20Kor more in that. So one approach to determine a fair value could be to work out how far from perfect she is, and quantify those factors to reach a fair purchase price. Need a new engine? Lop off, say $8K.  New sails? another $6k. etc.

In the case of a well-built boat such as the P323, there probably aren't many bad boats - just bad prices.  Get one at the right price, invest some money, and you will get a roomy, well-designed, sea-kindly coastal cruiser, better built and stronger than many more modern equivalents (not that I am biased..).

362

Electrical Systems & Electronics / Re: OEM Cabin Light Bulb Replacements

« on: August 29, 2011, 10:16:22 PM »

Useful info, thanks Ed. I was tempted to buy the SuperBright spots; good to hear they worked out for you. I have just ordered 4!

BTW, I also have the MarineBeam floods in the v-berth; they work well there, and use very little energy.

363

General Discussion / Re: Looking to Purchse a P 323

« on: August 28, 2011, 11:59:52 AM »

I like your choice of boat :-)

From the description I think the survey (2010) was not as thorough as I would like to see, and appeared slightly biased.  I was bothered by numerous spelling mistakes;  It was also very interesting to see the keel reported as external, with keel bolts; every model I am aware of has internal (encapsulated) keel; from the photos it looks like mine.

The photos and description do not appear to support the assertion of it reflecting "the care of a conscientious crew"; rather, I saw signs of neglect...how long has she been shrinkwrapped - or rather, how long since she was regularly sailed?  As you may know, of things have not been used for a while, they tend to age...as shrinkwrapped, why is there still moisture readings at base of stanchions?

The engine is very common, but seems like a lot of hours; I would definitely ask around, and get it checked, as a new engine is expensive. The leak in the salon is bothersome, not because it is difficult to fix - it should be straightforward - but because it could indicate neglect. The old datamarine instruments may be okay - I still use them, and a company (DMI) can repair and refurbish for less than replacing them all. Water heater - easy to replace, my original one still works fine - or rather did hen I replaced the heating element.  BTW, if you do replace it, set it up so the engine coolant circulates into the water heater - so the engine heats it up when cruising - nice to have.

The real question is how much time and money are you willing to put in to get her to the condition you want.  The P323 is a solid, well-build boat, so the "foundations" are probably solid; if the key expensive systems (engine, mast/rigging,no sodden core)  are sound, other items are generally very accessible and relatively inexpensive to fix.  If you can negotiate the right price, and have the budget for repairs, I would strongly suggest you get your own surveyor to do an unwrapped survey and sea-trial.

BTW, I have a full-batton loose footed main and love it.

364

Boat Handling / Re: Racing Tips

« on: August 26, 2011, 12:50:59 PM »

Not sure if this is hijacking my own thread, but Richard did say the P323 perform well in heavier winds.

So I was in the "slot" (SF bay, just E of Alcatraz) couple of days ago...wind 30knots,  main was double reefed, jib (100% working) furled 50% (which I hate, such an ugly shape, so much stress).  Close reach. Traveler leeward to let some power out...

Moderate heel (~20-30 degrees) , and the boat didn't feel "right" - subjective, I know, just not convinced I had the trim right.  Would welcome any suggestions for sail configurations in these conditions.

Thoughts I had:
- A P323 jib has a LOT of power. Much bigger than the main.  IMHO, a 100% is a big sail in that wind.
- A smaller jib would have been nice. 70%? Any suggestions? 
- Jib only?  Main only? 
- Maybe add a third reef point? (PITA due to more hardware needed on boom for the new clew)

Gotta love the bay. In a single day, winds 30 knots, winds 20 knots, winds 10 knots, becalmed....just depends where you are!

365

Boat Handling / Racing Tips

« on: August 14, 2011, 01:49:39 PM »

Do what I may, even with our PHRF of 180, I am not doing as well in the beercans as I would like. (I am generally using a working jib, have a fully-battened loose-footed main, sailing in 20-25 knot SF Bay winds.) Now clearly my sailing skills can be honed, and the P323 doesn't point as high as a modern boat, but I know we can do better - and would welcome any tips.

Before you jump in - clean bottoms are good  , and if ever I get the budget, a folding prop would really help.  And yeah, many pump out all water/diesel/waste, remove spare anchors, generally strip out all weight possible...and I knew I wasn't getting (or looking for) for a racer when I bought her!! But what I was interested in is any sailing/trim tips to get the best out of our babies.

Here's one for starters: The traveler position is REALLY important.

Any other tips/thoughts?

366

Sails and Canvas / Re: Light air head sail

« on: August 11, 2011, 01:10:58 AM »

Hey Richard, FWIW - I am much more of a newbie than you -  I have the same size/weight genoa/headsail.   Those light winter winds in the Bay would certainly make a larger headsail feasible.

367

Engine and Drive Train / Re: Volvo Penta MD11C engine (oil pressure)

« on: August 02, 2011, 11:32:25 AM »

I do not have direct experience in this engine (mine is a Westerbeke); but I would definitely not use the engine again unless it has been inspected by an expert, for fear of additional damage.  And fast - if water has gotten into the wrong part of the engine, that can wreak havoc.  If the engine gets into the combustion chamber, well, let's just say it isn't pretty as water does not compress very well.  And I once 'fused' an auto engine into a solid lump of metal when the oil escaped....

The disappearing oil is very worrying, as it can only go two places - into the bilge, or over the side; and dumping oil over the side, even inadvertently, is a bad idea and can lead to fines. Have you checked the bilge and under the engine? How is your exhaust?  Could the oil be burning off in that?

If it was a petrol engine I would immediately say the cylinder head gasket had gone. 

Final thought - this forum is not as heavily used as, say, Sailnet.  For a generic question like this you may want to try posting it there.

Good luck - and keep us posted.

368

Sails and Canvas / Re: Mainsail slugs

« on: July 27, 2011, 11:12:04 AM »

Brian could well be right...I don't have these slug-lines, and with the volume of sailcloth it is very difficult to seat the second reef over the hook.

369

Standing & Running Rigging and Fitting/Tuning / Rigid Boom Vang?

« on: July 27, 2011, 11:07:27 AM »

Would appreciate any opinions on rigid boom vangs.  It looks like my PO rarely used a vang - and with the weight of our boom, I can see why.  Mine is rigged, and definitely has some use....however, on other boats, a lot of folks like rigid boom vangs, claiming improved sail shape, better overall performance...so what do you think?

Obviously it would eliminate the topping lift - yeah, it is kinda ugly when under sail, but not a big deal - but beyond that, any thoughts?

Thanks!

Paul

370

Plumbing and Galley Systems / Re: Icebox drain

« on: July 08, 2011, 12:08:27 PM »

Yes, the Jabsco pump is a bit slow, but personally I like having the bilge dry....one of the advantages of an encapsulated keel is that it is possible!  And getting the bilge dry forced me to find a couple of FW leaks - one in each water tank (the inspection hatches were not screwed tight enough) and about 4 in the HP water system. But since then I have had a dustbowl in the bottom of the boat :-).  So although letting the water drain into the bilge is an option, you may want to wait a bit, to be sure that is what you want to do!

But I am happy that you found what you are looking for.  Exploring all the nooks and crannies is part of the fun of a new boat - and the P323 has quite a few hidey-holes. For example, you may want to check under the plastic bin under the chart-table seat - a pain to get out - I discovered that was where the PO kept his engine parts!!

Have fun!!

371

Plumbing and Galley Systems / Re: Icebox drain

« on: July 06, 2011, 01:30:34 PM »

From hull # 212:

1) I think I may have a different setup.  My icebox drain is connected to a Jabsco Topsider pump on the left(stbd) of the sink.  Pump the pump and it drains the icebox.  I have heard in some boats the icebox drains to the bilge...not the best idea, I think.  The red antifreeze worries me - perhaps it was laid up for a while (we don't get that cold around here) with the antifreeze...could that have gummed things up?  You may want to try and trace the pipe, and use a piece of wire or similar to ensure it is clear.

2) I have a different engine, so can't help 

3) Under the fwd storage box in the main salon I have the head inlet, head outlet, impeller and sounder. Oh, and the electrical connections for masthead equipment.  Maybe you have a similar setup?

372

Engine and Drive Train / Re: Repower Experiences

« on: July 05, 2011, 08:28:56 PM »

I can only give you a partial answer; my PO repowered with a Westerbeke 3B before I got the boat (repower in 2005).  Somehow the yard got it in without cutting anything (from what I have seen, the piece in the galley which separates the engine cover from the under-sink door seems often to be cut).  It is a tight fit - replacing the impeller in particular is a pain.  However, there are two things I particularly appreciate.  First, he repositioned the oil filter to a convenient location off the engine - it connects to the engine with rubber pipes.  Some engines allow this.

Second, he installed a drip-free seal on the prop shaft.

Fuel filters are easy - they are just on the left (i.e stbd fwd) as you remove the engine cover. I had assumed that was the original position?

If I were to do this, I would want to take a good look at the fuel tank - if it is showing signs of age, it'll be a heck of a lot easier to replace it with the engine out.  Having the engine out also offers a great opportunity to clean up the area, and consider other upgrades (a separate starter battery is one I often think about) which will be so much easier to do with the engine compartment empty. So when you get the big decision about the engine made, start writing up the list of things you can do while it is out!!

373

Steering System, Hull Structure / Re: Fouled knotmeter

« on: July 05, 2011, 08:15:13 PM »

Beats me.  I just snorkel down every month of so (during summer) and clean it out.  Removing it doesn't always help, as weed will grow around the hull fitting...

374

Sails and Canvas / Re: Hard to raise main

« on: May 14, 2011, 03:49:03 PM »

Good advice from other folks..but .maybe it is time to inspect the mast, and check the track for obstructions? I have heard of people putting blocks of soap or hard wax to self-lubricate the track; but if these break up, or are left (e.g. boat unused) for a while, it can be more like glue...

My track needs lubricating twice a year, otherwise (like you) it gets sticky about half way up.  I though this was a chore until I came across this simple idea (see photo). It took me about 10 minutes to make my version. Basically, two sail slides are screwed to a piece of 1' x 1/8" aluminum bar stock, which is then tapes to the can; alternativel;y they can be directly taped to the can. A piece of metal tubing then taped to either side. My bail is made from an old coathanger. After inserting in the track, the rig is hoised up with the main halyard attached to the loop of line, with a light downhaul on the bail. Then, by balancing pull on the halyard and tension on the downhaul, the spray is released as the can is pulled back down the mast. Quick and easy.

Hope this helps!

375

Sails and Canvas / Re: Full Batten Main

« on: April 22, 2011, 12:04:31 PM »

FWIW, my 323 had a recent ('05) full-batten loose-footed main when I bought it.  Although I don't therefore have experience with any other main, I have to say that this is a pretty sweet setup. There was also a long discussion on Sailnet about this, and (as I recall) the consensus is that loose-footed is a very good option, and if you go loose-footed then full battens are the way to go.