Traveler

[selene]

I'm not too happy about the standard P323 traveler setup - awkward to use, always seem to be pulling from the wrong side - and was wondering if anybody has tried any alternate ways to rig it.

I have what I think is the standard layout, double block on either side, block with fiddle on the car.  The blocks on the car started disintegrating a year ago, so I replaced them.   Now the double blocks (sheaves) are falling apart.  So since I now have to replace those, I was wondering anybodyy has figured out a better way to rig things.

One idea I had was to rotate the double blocks 90degrees, so the line tails to the stern...I have also seen boats with cam cleats on the car, which is a feasible mod.

Just starting my research - somebody has to have thought about this before!

Thanks....

[Frayed Knot]

http://www.rigrite.com/Travellers/NF_Travellers/NF610.html#NF%20610%20Traveller%20Control%20Ends

Rigrite has the blocks you might like but I think they are about $200.00 each.  Part # NF6612R and NF6612L for Nicro Fico track.  When I can afford it I will be going that way.  Now all I have is cleats to lash to. I got this info from an earlier post from Dolice Vita...

[selene]

Interesting - they pull towards the stern, which is what I was also thinking.  But instead of paying $200 each, U was considering rotating the double blocks 90 degrees, and moving the cam clear a few inches astern in line with the block (instead of above, where they are now).  I may mock this up by temporarily gluing a cleat in that position, and see of it gets in the way.

Also rather intimidated by pulling the entire track to install those NF fittings...but very much appreciate the pic, it's another option worth considering.

[Dolce_Vita]

It should not be necessary to pull the track to install these.  The end caps on the track are hard rubber, and are held in place by a press-fit pin.  You should be able to force a pair of needle-nose pliers past the rubber to grasp the pin and wiggle it out, and then slide the end cap off the track.

Rig-Rite also has a mechannically equivilent assembly that replaces the end caps (NF 16261), with a double-block and optional cleat arrangement (NF 16469A), but together they are about $300 apiece last I checked!

http://www.rigrite.com/Travellers/NF_Travellers/NF610.html

[selene]

Well, I like the idea for the end caps, but at $300 apiece, plus the cam plates (16469), there would probably not be a lot of change from $700.

Harken have double turning blocks for around $70.  If I move the cam cleats aft (with a solid backing plate) I have something functionally very similar to the end caps for 20% of the cost.  More holes in be boat, and messes up the jibsheet "bag" I have in that position (which I don't use anyway).  Well, still thinking about it...my sheaves will probably last a few more weeks...

[Dolce_Vita]

The conversion "kit" that RigRite sells has a pair each of the double end-blocks, cam bracket, cam cleat, and traveler block with becket and attached spliced control line for $600 total.

[selene]

Some things never come easy....

An update on my traveller ponderings, in case anybody has any bright ideas...

The NF-16261 is 1/2" too big (on Selene); I'd need to cut the track to make it fit. I *think* the NF-16261 could work, but it is expensive, and uses up track space - not a lot, but I want as much traveller movement as possible. So before I dropped $500-$600 with RigRite, I thought I would look around.

Lewmar have a really nice looking setup which would give a 5:1 advantage, instead of the current 3:1, with the lines running back to the traveller; BUT installing in the current position may not be possible; for starters, it is not clear of the Lewmar track can be bent...I have a call in to them.  And then, as you know, the traveller rail fits in a recess, so it would be a tight fit for the car...yes, I could move the traveller, or put spacers underneath it, but I don't like that option.  Another wacky option is to bolt the lexmar track on top of the original NF track; if that would work, $370 for an entirely new complete traveller setup...hmmm...

Next stop - Garhauer. They will custom make/bend a traveller.  We'll see what they recommend....but I may end up where I started, with two $70 harken blocks, and the original traveller setup!

[rbrtfeld]

Garhauer is a great company and their customer service is outstanding. If they need to look and measure the traveler on the 323, let them know they are welcome to look at my boat in San Pedro,CA. Good Luck. Their Block are great as well. I just bought a couple of blocks from Mark with Gahhauer at the Long Beach Boat show. They have cool stuff.

[popeye323]

Hi All

New to the board but a long time 323 owner. Many years ago I replaced the traveler on my 323 with a traveler and block set up made by Harken, sold by my local marine supplier. I removed the original track and they bent one to the exact length and curvature of the original. The adjusting lines trail aft and the cars each have 4 rollers. ( I don't remember the ratio) The system works great. At the time I did it 1993, I think it cost me about $900 for all the hardware. I installed it myself which was not too difficult just time consuming to get under the old one and unbolt it.

[Rusty Pelican]

Please post photos when you get a chance.

[selene]

FWIW: A quick update (in case anybody is interested!) 

- I rejected the RigRite approach, as it would have cost almost as much as a new traveller but I would end up with an old traveller which now worked.

- I also rejected the lower-cost approach, as I wasn't happy with the mechanical advantage, or the placement of the turning blocks and cleats.  I spent a while toying around with alternatives, but reluctantly decided it would still be like putting lipstick on a pig - the turning blocks would be improved, but the traveller car is definitely 1980s technology.

- Harken looked like it would work and be very sweet, but was very expensive (about 2x the alternatives).

- Lewmar said the old Ocean series would work, some are still available, but it's being discontinued.  I would also have to bend the track myself, which means after it was anodized, risking (inevitable) cracking of the anodizing.

- Garhauer were very helpful on the phone (Guido), looks like it will fit, and they will custom bend (then anodize). Around $750. Even promised the bolt holes would line up with the originals...so that's the way I went, fingers crossed.  The only catch is that the process takes around ~4 weeks, so I won't be sailing for a while.

The old track (currently in the hands of USPS) was straightforward to remove - end caps popped off, then  8 bolted screws each side (as I recall), silicon sealant so gentle prying to remove...

I'll take photos and update you in (hopefully) a month or so.

[Dolce_Vita]

FWIW: A quick update (in case anybody is interested!) ...

Thanks for the update.  I'm definitely interested, as my traveler arrangement is even poorer than yours, with only a 2:1 advantage, no turning block, and the (horizontal) cam cleat mounted down in the recess, making it very difficult to cleat.

Between the friction of using the line-guide as a turning eye,  and the 2:1 ratio, the admiral can't raise the traveler very far when going to windward.  Every time, she reminds me "You've got to fix this!"

[selene]

Ed, thanks for clearing up a mystery for me - I still have the small eye strap, and wondered what it was for. It also explains why the track ends about 5" from the cockpit sides (to squeeze in the cam cleat!).  I am guessing that was the original setup.

An easy (and relatively inexpensive) upgrade is what I had.  Add a single turning block with becket to the traveller car - e.g the NF610 block with becket (I may end up with a couple of new ones spare...), and then double turning blocks on both cockpit sides.  It ups the advantage from 2:1 to 3:1, making it more manageable; the cost would be about $70 each for the double blocks (e,g, Harken Double Upright Lead Bullet Block).  That seemed adequate for most conditions; you can see my old setup in one of the photos.  However, in my case cleating upwards did not work well for me, as unless you are sitting on the winch (uncomfortable) or are putting your body in line with the mainsheet car (that could hurt) you tend to pull from the side - which trashes the sheaves.

Why am I looking at changing? In summer, winds here are generally 20-25 knots, often above.  With the existing setup I could tune the traveller in those higher winds, but it was not easy.  The disintegration of the old Delrin sheaves is what started me on this path. In addition to more mechanical advantage, modern travellers use new-fangled things called ball-bearings - which I am told take a lot of friction out of the system! So we'll see if the Garhauer setup works better than what I have now.

I'll keep you all posted...

[Dolce_Vita]

Curiously, my blocks on the traveler already have the beckets, they're just unused!

I had been thinking of mounting a double block stack in the recess on a base to raise it up in line with the travler, and relocating the cam-cleat onto the top surface of the seat, leading aft.  But it puts a lot of cantelever load on the base of the stack.  I think I like your coaming mounted solution better. With suitable backing, and the cam leading aft instead of up, it is a better solution.

[selene]

Okay, so you asked for it...still awaiting sea trials, but otherwise

The new Garhauer traveller arrived after about 5 weeks - each track is custom made (machined, drilled, bent) then anodised, which is what takes the time.  I sent them my old track to ensure a perfect match, and they are as good as their word - the holes lined up perfectly, the curve was good, so installation was relatively smooth.  The car itself is a lot beefier than the original, and well machined - it was very satisfying watching it move freely from one side of the track to the other with a gently push - the old traveller barely moved. You can see a comparison of the new and old traveller in the first photo.  The second shows the end caps, and the third the full assembly. Overall quality appears excellent.  I'll report back after a few hours sailing, but overall it looks like a very promising route for replacing the original setup.  The cost was around $800 by the time new line was factored in.