cockpit sole core repair

[Eddy]

When I purchased our boat the survey showed elevated moisture around the emergency rudder access plate. Sunday I removed the plate to inspect the severity and found quite a bit of rotted wood and some sort of caulking had been injected into the area which appears to have made the situation worse. The rot extends all the way to the binnacle and it looks to be all the way over to the edge on the starboard side. The port side is better but not by much. I haven't pulled the fuel level window in front of the binnacle yet but intend to do so. I've asked a few people about repair options and gotten two basic responses.

One is to use some form of tool to remove as much of the rotted wood as possible and then allow it to dry for at least a week and then fill with thin epoxy to wet out the existing good wood. Then use thickened expoxy to fill the areas where the wood is missing.

The second is to remove the skin from the cockpit and replace the wood with a foam that is layed over with epoxy and glass.

I did some reading on the second method and most that I read had removed the bottom skin and not the top. It looks to be very difficult to remove the bottom skin and manage to replace the core from the bottom. If anyone has made this sort of repair I would appreciate any information or tips on what you did and how it worked out. Thanks.

[Rusty Pelican]

Never seen this type of rot before on a P323 before.. I would do the lower repair, a special tool is needed for this repair, This is a low cost unit  Black & Decker BD200MTB 2-Amp Variable-Speed Oscillating Multi-Tool. Cheap but a well built unit.  Can spend more
Remove the rot,  epoxy in marine plywood with West System. Re bed. Go sailing
Good luck

Bob G

[Eddy]

Repair looks to be very difficult to do from below. What are the coins to doing it from above? I removed the fuel gauge  window and found end grain balsa as the core there. The binnacle and rudder had plywood as core. I do intend to do the nonskid in kiwi grip. I had not planned on that for this year but could do just the cockpit sole to cover/blend the repair. Thoughts? Thanks.

[selene]

I think (speculate) people generally tackle similar jobs from below for two reasons: First, the top "skin" is often thicker, and will keep its original shape better, and second it is easier to conceal the repair.

I have never tried this repair, but on our boats I can't think of a way to do it from below, because of (as you said) lack of access.  I guess you could remove engine and fuel tank, but it seems like a heck of a lot of work.

I replaced the sole of a boston-whaler type boat a couple of years ago.  The biggest hurdle was getting up the courage to take on the job.  Removed all fixtures, cut around and removed the "skin", rebuilt.  Took longer than I thought, but is totally solid now.

Random thoughts on your project:

- How to support base of sole when you epoxy in the new ply sheet?  Screws from below where you can (filled later) perhaps, maybe also something (inflatable bag?) on the fuel tank pushing up, perhaps a temporary wooden frame/sheet for underside support.  The bottom fiberglass 'skin' will likely be fairly thin/flexible

- You probably don't want to tab up the sides (aesthetics), so maybe the gutters should be left in place for adhesion?

- Personally I would not use foam core - probably out of my ignorance - I'd replace the core with marine ply.  The cockpit sole takes a lot of abuse (people jumping up and down, etc) so it needs to be very strong.

Good luck!

[Eddy]

I took the plunge and removed the top skin about 6" aft of the rudder access plate and about 4" forward of the binnacle. A friend on the dock had a complete book by West System on repairs and they covered this very thing in detail. On the sides I left enough room for the 12 to 1 feather when the two pieces of the deck are laid back down. I have no idea how someone would manage to do this repair from underneath with good results I am positive I could not do it that way and be satisfied with my effort. The binnacle mounting bolts are aluminum and mine were severely corroded I am very glad I took it all apart now. The forward end of the binnacle had sunk into the sole about 1/4". There was nothing left of the core underneath the binnacle at all completely rotted. I took alot of pictures and as soon as I figure out how to get them off of my new phone I'll post in here.

[Dulcinea]

Eddy:  Good for you.  Sounds like you've got some direction now.  Would be very interesting in looking at those pics when you find time to post them. 
Good luck on the project.
Dennis

[Eddy]

Here is the first set of pictures. Step 1 was to remove the compass, 2 screws on the forward end..this houses the light assy. unplug. The chrome cover comes off and there are 4 screws that hold the compass, remove those and lift compass off and stow. You will be able to see the shifter assemblies. 2 stainless pins with cotter keys. The pins were installed with the heads to the outside of the pedestal. I removed with vise grips to mitigate dropping them. Once the cables are disconnected there are 4 1/4-20x3 1/2" brass flat head bolts to remove. These were the hardest of all to get out. Once that is done you are looking at the chain drive. Down below you will need to remove both cable assemblies from the wheel. If the cables are original as mine were they are crimped at the end that goes onto the quadrant (that is not the right word but I don't remember the correct one). If they are crimped you cannot remove them without cutting the cables. I pulled the chain up and removed one side at the cable end. Remove the 4 badly corroded aluminum mounting bolts at the base of the binnacle and lift off.

[Eddy]

I forgot two steps. First remove the wheel. The other is just prior to pulling the pedestal you will need to remove the bolt that is on the aft side and about halfway up the pedestal this is what holds the cable clamp inside the pedestal. I think this will be one of the harder steps to reverse when reassembling. Pics of the bare sole and the skin removed. I also pulled and inspected the fuel level window plate. This part of the core looks to be balsa. While I'm in here going to route out the hole and mounting screws and fill with epoxy to insure no more moisture can get in.

[Rusty Pelican]

Thanks for the pics.  It looks like plywood to me

[Eddy]

I agree, definitely plywood underneath the binnacle and rudder access. The core material under the fuel access plate looks like end grain balsa to me. Kind of makes sense they would use the plywood under there for additional structure. I am thinking of using G10 under the binnacle to provide as much structure as possible. Any thoughts on using something along those lines? I think a piece about 12"x13" would cover that area.

[Rusty Pelican]

I would agree with that

[selene]

I have not had any personal experience with G10 in this context - how is epoxy adhesion?

I have heard of G10 used as a seacock backing plate, and other small areas as supplemental reinforcement, but not inserted into a deck recore.  I can see the advantages (stiffer, rot proof) but I would be concerned about how it would adhere to the rest of the structure.  I wonder of you could rabbet it to make a solid fit?  I was thinking you would replace the sole with a new ply sheet, but now now you got me wondering too!

FYI:
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/96435-best-cheapest-place-get-g10-grp-boards.html

[Eddy]

The G10 is epoxy based and so it will readily bond when laid in with an epoxy like MAS or West System. I'm going to use that to provide a solid base for the pedestal and grab rail to mount to.

I've also contacted Edson for the parts to rebuild the steering system while I have it all apart. The bottom plate that the sheaves mount to is steel from the factory. Edson only has a few of those plates left they are using aluminum now, this lowers the sheaves a 1/4". In addition the sheave mounts have been re-designed and in turn also lower the sheaves by another 1/4". If you use the new aluminum plate and the new sheave mounts you will have to drop your radial wheel by 1/2". After speaking to them I'm going to remove my existing plate and send it to them. They will press my sheave mounts to a new steel plate and send it back negating the need to move the radial wheel. The wheel is aluminum with stainless bolts connecting the two halves.

My steering cables were original! Pearson used nicopress fittings at the radial wheel end. You cannot get the original cables through the bottom plate without cutting them. Recommended service life on the cables is 5-7 years. The new cables come with a removable fitting at the radial wheel end allowing you to remove the cables without destroying them. I also ordered a complete rebuild kit for the steering shaft and a new brake. I figured I might as well do it all while I've got it apart. Going to add a NEMA 2000 cable as well in preparation for a new chartplotter.

Edson's technical support and customer service has been top notch. The parts are expensive but if the replacements hold up as well as the originals it will be money well spent.

[selene]

Thanks for the photos and notes - very informative.

One thing clear from the photos - when you got the skin off - the work definitely needed to be done!

I am sure many of us will be watching with great interest as the work progresses.  Good luck - or, as the French say, "bon courage"!

[Eddy]

This weekend I cut, fit and installed the coring and G10 for the binnacle. I attached a couple pictures, one of the dry fit, and another of the coring after glassing it in with the West System epoxy. I contoured the core around the rudder access so that the entire area for the plate is solid epoxy. My dockmate Joran found a flowerpot that fit into that hole snugly, that the yellow you can see in the second picture. Thanks Joran! I used Coosa bluewater 26 for the remaining areas that's the grey looking stuff. It is similar to plywood but a bit lighter and it does not absorb water. It was recommended by a local wizard with fiberglass and paint. The wife and I did get the top skin re-attached but I didn't get a picture of it. I covered with plastic and weighted it down with 2 50lb bags of sand, the flowerpot was left in place and I'll remove it once it is all cured. I also routed out the fuel window plate about 2" around and filled that with unthickened epoxy. Edson shipped out my parts on Friday so I should have them in hand today or tomorrow. Goal for the coming weekend is to feather the edge of the two skins and glass the seam.