Author Topic: New to 323, quick question.  (Read 32859 times)

Nautilus

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New to 323, quick question.
« on: January 17, 2013, 02:05:23 PM »
I stumbled across a 323 in my area that has potential for me.

The only question I have for you 323 owners is Engine HP/Displacement ratio.

Is the 23 HP Diesel adequate for this vessel?

I ask because I owned a Bristol 29.9, an 8900 lb vessel with the 15 HP inboard and was I lucky to average 4 kts SOG under power.

Granted most sailors are interested in sailing performance, I'm just as concerned about reserve power and long distance cruising under power.
23 HP appears to be just below Jack Horner's 2 Hp per 1,000 lbs of displacement rule of thumb guide to provide for adequate performance under power.

FWIW, when I took that Bristol  from the Atlantic into Lower/Upper Hudson bay and then up the NYC's East River and through Hell's gate, my knuckles were white for an extended period of time. Averaging 1 kt SOG on an outgoing tide underneath the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge for most of the night sucked. Hell's gate speaks for itself. So I like plenty of iron in my genny.

Hence this question.

Other than that, a serious long term love affair appears to be developing! She's seem's to fit my needs and may in fact be the last I ever own.


Thanks!

Ed
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 02:51:05 PM by Nautilus »

Dolce_Vita

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Re: New to 323, quick question.
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2013, 04:24:36 PM »
From one Ed to another, welcome to the forum!

I hope you find the 323 to your liking.  My wife and I love ours.  She's a great boat with a very seakindly behavior.  Not a go-fast machine, but a sturdy seaworthy boat with a very livable design for two cruisers.

When the 323 was originally designed, it came with a gasoline-powered Atomic-4 and a 2:1 v-drive.  With a proper prop attached, this combo could produce up to 30 HP, which is a reasonable amount (plus some margin!) for a 12,800 lb boat.  In my opinion, the 2-cylinder 23 HP Volvo MD11C that replaced it was marginally underpowered, and noisy.  The 2-cylinder design produces a lot of vibration.

By now (but YMMV!),  those MD11C's are reaching end-of-life and are too expensive to rebuild.  Many have been replaced with modern diesels, including Yanmar and Beta (a marinized Kubota tractor engine).  I like the Beta 25 or 28 as a candidate when repowering a P-323.  It's 3-cylinder design should be smoother and quieter, and its 25 HP output should be a good match for this boat.

Full disclosure: Ours came with an Atomic-4, and when the time came to replace it, I went back in with another Atomic-4.

EDIT: Post 100!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 04:26:57 PM by Dolce_Vita »
@(^.^)@  Ed
1977 P-323 #42 "Dolce Vita"
with rebuilt Atomic-4

selene

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Re: New to 323, quick question.
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2013, 11:50:34 AM »
As another datapoint, mine was refitted with a Westerbeke 30B Three cylinder, which puts out about 27hp.  Plenty powerful.

Libations Too

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Re: New to 323, quick question.
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2013, 12:23:28 PM »
Nautilus Ed,

Welcome! Those who look carefully at the 323 usually come away with positive impressions. A few years back I ran across a Pacific Seacraft 31 or 32-footer at a boat show that was nearly identical to the 323 on paper but at the bank the Pacific Seacraft was 5 or 6 times the cost. It made me feel quite good about the 323.

My 323 has the Volvo and, with a clean bottom and good conditions, can get 6 knots at 1500-1800 RPM with the std. 3-blade cruising prop. At that RPM I can cruise at about 1/3 gallon fuel per hour. If I want to push to 2200 RPM or so I can get closer to hull speed but fuel consumption rises to about 1/2 gallon per hour...and she starts to squat a bit, which I have never considered very becoming in such an otherwise nice form. The MD11 is noisier than many and, being a two cylinder engine, does have its sweet spots in terms of vibration...but these attributes have never been problems for me.

My point with all of this is that if one is stemming a 4 or 5 knot tidal current (not uncommon in many places) a 32 ft displacement hull (regardless of who was the designer) will have trouble making very much more than a couple knots SOG (and I would expect even less from a 30-footer). Unless one goes to an ultra light hull form, the wetted area of any 32-footer will be comparable to the 323 and I would thus expect similar performance.

Where I have noticed the MD11 struggle a bit is when meeting larger, steep wind waves. The wave lifts the bow, tries to push it backwards, and generally slows the boat. The big 3-blade prop keeps taking the same bite and does a decent job of getting the boat back up to cruising speed but when the next wave comes along the whole dance step starts again. The shorter the wave period the more troublesome making headway becomes. Perhaps another few HP would be useful in such conditions but it would also be harder on the boat and crew (me) so I just take it as it comes and use the opportunity to hone my steering skills...
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 12:29:28 PM by Libations Too »
Richard

Dulcinea

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Re: New to 323, quick question.
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2013, 01:24:48 PM »
Welcome Ed.  Your question was "is a 23 HP diesel adequate"?  When I first bought my 1978 P323 it had the Volvo diesel, 2200 hours, rusty and real "suspicious looking", i.e., I didn't trust it.  But....it started, ran and seemed to be adequate in most conditions that first year.  The next year, 2012, I bit the bullet and had it repowered.  I went with a Beta engine from a guy named Joe Demers at Sound Marine Diesel in Connecticut.  Joe told me the 20HP Beta would push my boat to hull speed.  The 25HP model was essentially the same footprint, however, so for I think $600 more, I went with that one, with a two-blade prop.  The engine will accelerate to 3600 RPM, but I reach 6.5 knots at 1500 RPM and the thing is running so quietly you can barely hear it.  To my mind that verifies Joe's claim that the 20HP would have been "adequate".  Of course you know that bottom condition, prop, tides, weather, etc. all play a role in this question as well as does which diesel engine. 

As someone noted, if the boat you're looking at has the usual 30+ year-old MD11 and you plan on owning it for a few years, you will most likely repower the boat.  The new diesel technology is far superior to what we are used to seeing in older boats.  I know the Betas better than Yanmars or Westerbekes, but with the Beta you will have the option of 20HP, 25HP and even the 28HP will fit in that boat and has been installed.  I'm sure the others are equally good engines. 

Others may disagree, but as to the previous comment about these Volvos getting old and a bit long in the tooth, I would go so far as saying that if you're looking at a late70's-early 80's 323 with a Volvo MD11 and you don't want to (or can't afford to) repower in a few years, I wouldn't buy the boat.  The Volvos weren't the best engines to start with.  FWIW.
Dennis aboard Dulcinea

Nautilus

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Re: New to 323, quick question.
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2013, 12:07:49 PM »
Gentlemen,

Thank you ALL for the input, much of which I suspected.

Here's the plan.

I really do want this boat lol!!!

5.5-6.5 Kt's avg cruising speed is adequate as it's basically what I do now. Should be fine here roaming up and down the east coast.

Here's the deal, as the boat is affordable, and in good condition. Other than the layers of bottom paint and what appears to be water seeping from a point midway up the keel she appears in fine condition for a 1980 boat.

As I fully expect to repower, I would do that as soon as I could spare the change. Sometime in the next several years. As the vessel is listed in the mid teens, a ~$15K repower is not only feasible, but may be preferred. For personal reasons I want to stick with diesel.

I'm hoping this to really be the last boat I purchase. I'm a less is more type of person so if I end up living aboard her, I don't think it would be a problem for my Admiral and I. Yes, as 36-40 footer would be nice. But with retirement in the horizon, expenses increase logarithmically with boat size lol.

So, I'm hoping the stars align, certain events come to place before the 2013 season starts, and no one grabs her so we can talk as fellow 323 owners.
I'll know better within the next few weeks.

In the end, I don't know what it is, but I feel a real attachment to this particular boat......she calls to me at night from the boat yard! lol

Thanks Again,

Ed

selene

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Re: New to 323, quick question.
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2013, 09:11:07 PM »
I'm interested in your comment on "water seeping midway up the keel".

As you know, the keel is encapsulated.  However when I got my boat, there was water seeping out of the bottom of the false keel.  I drilled a hole into the keel, a week later it was still weeping; so I enlarged it, and in the end I ended up removing a 2ft*2ft surface of the false keel; underneath the fiberglass 'skin' the false keel filling was literally like Swiss cheese, multiple small holes, many with filled with water, oil, etc (?!).  Beats the hell out of me how that happened, but I also found evidence of a previous repair - a long drainage hold drilled upwards from the bottom aft of the keel, then filled.

Anyhow I let it dry out, refilled, repainted - so far so good.  I guess that the false keel void must have been filled with some kind of epoxy filler; but how did water/oil penetrate this? Through the bilge somehow? Very odd as everything else is high quality and very solid.

Anybody else had a similar experience?

(P.S. Still love my 323!)

Nautilus

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Re: New to 323, quick question.
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2013, 10:14:49 AM »
Selene, others,
This is what I see, and I'm NO expert, but I see rust stain.
Ed


selene

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Re: New to 323, quick question.
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2013, 11:11:21 AM »
Okay, I am stumped. Judging by the angle this looks like a photo of the forward part of the keel.  I *thought* all P323s had encapsulated lead (mine is).  maybe the PO grounded on a rusty nail?  :)  Regardless, I am betting that you need to grind the area out, inspect, then re-epoxy.

If you have not purchased the boat yet, you may want to make the final offer contingent on having the area ground out and then inspected by your surveyor.  I don't want to be an alarmist - in most cases it should be a quick and easy job.  But in a worst case, I have heard in other boats holed through  "skin" of the encapsulated keel having water penetrating around the internal ballast/hull joint, damaginf the integrity and loosening the ballast.  Especially bad if cast iron ballast.

Chances are it should be a quick grind and fill - a fairly straightforward job (and should not be too expensive).   As an aside, I prefer an encapsulated keel - dry bilge (no bilge smells), no keel bolts to worry about - but no solution is perfect.

Good luck!!

Dolce_Vita

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Re: New to 323, quick question.
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2013, 01:22:29 PM »
Am I seeing things that aren't there, or does the top part of the darkest area show a circular outline when magnified?

A drill hole from past probing?

Can't imagine what is producing the rust stain.  The only thing in the bilge that is made of mild, rustable steel is the mast step, and it would take a terrific amount of delamination to allow rusty water from that to make its way down that far between the keel ballast and the hull.
@(^.^)@  Ed
1977 P-323 #42 "Dolce Vita"
with rebuilt Atomic-4

Dulcinea

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Re: New to 323, quick question.
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2013, 03:10:53 PM »
Ed:
Selene just gave you the best advice you're ever gonna get.  Get a good surveyor, a SAMS or NAMS guy that you are paying and have him give you an honest viewpoint on this.  This could be a small problem or a really big one and even small problems can run you into $1000's.  By your own admission, you're in love with the boat, surfacing the possibility you're not looking at this objectively.  Understand that there are other 323's out there without the ugly keel issue.  None will be perfect, but personally this would bother me.  If you have not bought this boat yet, and you really shouldn't have without a survey, I would hold off til you can get some professional advice.  These boats are usually worth the investent in repowering, but if you're looking at that AND some structural issues that only a boat yard can fix, it can get real steep real fast.  Good luck.

Nautilus

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Re: New to 323, quick question.
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2013, 12:09:22 PM »
Thanks to everyone!

Here's an update.

I dropped the deal on boat with the diesel because I'm not paying an addition $5k yard quoted bottom job on a vessel in fair condition.
Owner states he came down enough already originally with his asking price, so he is welcome to sell to someone else.

However, I have a line on another 323, this having the Atomic 4.

Though my intent was to go diesel for personal reasons,  would Dolce_Vita give me performance estimates and why he stayed with the Atomic 4?
What are the arguments for the Atomic 4? (No flame wars please, just data lol)

Again, concerned with avg cruising speed, and now fuel consumption.

v/r

Ed

Dolce_Vita

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Re: New to 323, quick question.
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2013, 01:27:02 AM »
Nautilus Ed,

  When we were first hunting for a P-323, we were only going to look at diesels.  A number of friends convinved me that, if the rest of the boat met my needs and requirements, that I shouldn't dismiss it just because it has an A4.

They turned out to be right.

The A4 is a very well-supported engine, thanks largely to the efforts of Moyer Marine.  Of the 40,000 originally built, 20,000 are still in service. And as of 2 years ago, Moyer is even casting new blocks, built right here in America.  All parts are readily available.  And there is a huge active user base on the Moyer Marine Forum.  So when we found a boat that was in good condition, and well equiped, but with an original, un-rebuilt but well-running A4, we went for it, knowing that we could get parts and support, and even a fresh engine, if needed.

What I found was that the A4 is a dirt-simple, overbuilt, reliable beast that can be understood and kept running by an ordinary Joe with standard tools.  It's based on 1940s-era tractor engine technology, but was designed from the ground up to be a sailboat engine.  Keep it clean, feed it with oil & gas, and keep it from freezing, and it'll run for decades.

As it turned out, the PO had damaged it by improper winterizing the Winter before, but the damage was not apparent, missed by both myself and the specialist engine surveyor.  Midway through our first season, without symptoms, it died beyond redemption with a cracked block!  I did a lot of research on the possibility of repowering with a diesel, but determined that this was a LOT of work, as MANY systems are affected (fuel, electrical, controls, mounting, prop, shaft, v-drive, etc) and very expensive.  The total, even with me doing some of the work, would approach what we paid for the boat.  A rebuilt A4, on the other hand, would be a drop-in replacement.  In an effort to trade money for time, I elected to buy a rebuilt short block from Moyer, and swap out the other parts from our first engine myself.  I also took this opportunity to convert from raw water cooling to fresh water cooling, as this is the single best thing you can do for your engine (gas or diesel) to improve its longevity.  My total cost, including almost $1000 for the fresh water cooling, was somewhere between $5000 and $6000.

So that's how I came to the A4 and why I stuck to it.

As for performance numbers,  here's what I have. 

After the rebuild, on flat water with no wind, I get a wide-open-throttle (WOT) performance of 3100 RPM and a little over 6.5 Knots.  This is still under the boat's hull-speed of 7.04 kts, but I believe I'm still a little under-propped.  I'm hoping to repitch the prop this spring.

But you don't really want to run there.  It's not efficient and it's hard on things.  Normally, I run between 2000 and 2400 rpm.  At 2000 I'm doing 5 kts with no headwind.  On the other hand, we've pushed into an 18 kt headwind and 3 - 5 ft seas on the nose, getting up to about 5 kts before the next wave would slam us down to 3.

Last summer, We did a 400 mile circumnavigation of the DelMarva Peninsula.  There was little wind and we ended up motoring a large portion of the time. 71 hours over a one week period!  Based on the engine hour meter and actual gallons burned, we averaged about 3/4 gallon per hour.  With the P-323's large 30 gallon tank, this meant we were able to do the entire 140 NM offshore leg on less than a tank.  Never even had to get into the jerry jugs we kept on deck.  Others on the Moyer Marine forum report similar consumption rates when some effort has been made to tune the engine for efficiency.

Hope this helps.  Let me know if there's anything else you'd like to know.
@(^.^)@  Ed
1977 P-323 #42 "Dolce Vita"
with rebuilt Atomic-4

Nautilus

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Re: New to 323, quick question.
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2013, 03:15:45 PM »
Ed,

Thanks for the advice and data.

Agreed, not any one requirement (like the A4) is stopping me. I'm alright as long as I know what I'm getting into because I'd rather be aware of MY perceived  "con's" rather than encountering "buyers remorse" after the fact.

My concerns are not so much the A4 itself (another vessel I looked at has a rebuilt A4), but rather the gas. I just have never been a fan of inboards using gas.
Murphy's Law is a clear and present danger in my life.

I once had a a diesel fuel leak from a bleeder screw for an entire 4 hour run home on board my Bristol. I had to babysit it the whole way to prevent the bilge from filling with diesel. I actually enjoyed a good cigar during it since all I was doing was constantly holding shop rags on the bleeder and wiping it. Other than looking like Han's the "Ghost" from the movie "Das Boot" and feeling like I was in Pink Floyd concert (ears ringing and being high from diesel fumes) I was no worse for wear and had a great story to tell. That sort of convinced me to stick with diesel.
Had I not noticed it, I would just have environmentally trashed Long Island Sound.
Had it been  gas, well I don't want to think about it.

Safety aside, I know both diesel and gas have it's pro's and cons.

My current vessel burns about 1GPH just hitting hull speed at 6.3 kts. So 3/4 GPH average is not an issue.

Plus diesel is about a dollar more.

Like I said, not a show stopper, just a consideration.

Moving forward to view the boat!

Thanks!

Ed

Nautilus

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Re: New to 323, quick question.
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2013, 03:52:29 PM »
If you don't mind, other thoughts Ed........

Just stumbled across a post from you regarding safety on another repower post, food for thought. http://www.pearson323.com/forum/index.php?topic=40.0

Question is, you must have a backflame arrestor on the Carb, correct?
I have to check my CG Regs, and NY State regs too, but I do believe it's mandatory.

How long to you run the blowers before you turn her over?

Do you have an auto extinguishing system?

Lots of food for thought here!

I like those $$ you spoke of compared to the diesel.
The cheap $#*! in me lol.

Ed