Author Topic: cutter revision  (Read 14301 times)

stardog

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cutter revision
« on: May 09, 2011, 08:13:31 AM »
i am preparing for a cruise into the upper great lakes next year and have consulted with my sailmaker ,he reccomends employing my storm sail as a cutter
foresail, bringing the center of effort down and closer amidships. my main is deeply reefedthe second reef equal to a third reef .
i am looking into any modification to the deck to accomodate the tack .any one with any suggestions on a retrofit to the 323 into a cutter rig would be appreciated.
stardog
oak orchard
lake ontario

Captain Bri

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Re: cutter revision
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2011, 11:00:38 AM »
This is a topic for discussion that is of great interest to me... here are some comments that I hope will be beneficial. A few reference diagram links are included for clarity.

A cutter rig is more efficient for reducing sail area -- thus reducing weather helm, heel, and leeway during a blow. As mentioned this is done by lowering the Geographic Center of Effort (GCE), or more specific the Combined GCE of all sails. A boat designed for a cutter rig typically has the mast stepped further aft and running backstays are rigged for the additional headsail loading.

The design of the P323 would lend itself more to a removable inner forestay with a storm staysail in combination with the reefed main (or trysail). Without any practical data on the boat the task seems to be something like; locating an inner forestay on the mast and deck, without overloading the rig, allowing for disconnect/stowage, and addition of an appropriately sized storm staysail.

Counterpoint: The windage generated by a furled genoa has a negative effect on the Center of Effort. There are most likely trade-offs in reefing a storm staysail in combination with a furled genoa. Its all about efficiently reducing sail area to maintain a balanced helm and smooth driving force.

Counter Solutions: (1) A traditional storm sail hanked on the old fashioned way.  (2) An ATN Gale Sail (or similar) which is designed with a luff sleeve that hoists over a furled genoa -- this is a compromise at best, and comments seem to be both pro and con.

In lieu of practical data on the P323 (unless an elusive owner comes forward) it may be worthy to do the math. A modified drawing of the sail plan should be useful in estimating the benefits of a storm staysail by calculating the new Combined GCE. To be continued...
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Libations Too

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Re: cutter revision
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2011, 12:21:40 PM »
I have been down this path with my 323 Libations Too.  This is a very good discussion topic and I'll add my perspective:

1.  I grew up sailing othe Great Lakes and would not spend the money on this mod just for Great Lakes sailing.  As I recall, most high wind events are associated with Thunder storms and a safe and convenient way of handling such conditions is to drop sail and motor through the storm....my opinion only.

2.  I considered a cutter mod for Libations Too but the 323 does not offer a good structural connection for the stay aft of the anchor well.  The obvious alternative was something forward of the anchor well, which led me to the addition of a removable Solent stay.  My thoughts on this matter and my final installation are presented here: http://rollinscs.com/boatpages/projects3page.htm

3.  When considering a storm sail I opted for a smaller sail than may normally be considered appropriate for the 323.  Part of my reasoning was that my 95% jib, when furled to the end of it's reef patches, is about the size of a standard storm jib for the 323. For this reason I selected a smaller storm jib both to better compliment my existing sail inventory and to make sail handling that much easier.

4.  I have never flown my storm sail in real storm conditions, but I have used the Solent stay for a second jib (twins) on coastal cruises down wind....and it works great.  I have also used the Solent stay to hoist a second jib, which in turn allows me to change my roller furling jib without a complete stop.  This may sound a bit ridiculous in a boat designed mostly for cruising, but the stability of the boat while in motion (as opposed to bobbing in the chop) and the ability of the staysail to help keep the roller furling jib on deck while lowering it were greatly appreciated.

5.  My last comment, also without any mathematical back-up, pertains to the center of effort discussion.  While it makes sense that the ideal shortened rig should not alter the overall center of effort, the real world is somewhat different.  On the 323 I have found that she sails best on her feet and that reducing sail to reduce heel should be the first priority when encountering higher wind speeds.  I have sailed along at over 7 knots with no head sail and my main reefed to it's third reef point.  We were reaching at the time so center of effort was not an over-riding issue...but it was clear to me that any more sail than the third reef would have added little in terms of boat speed and would have added much in terms of stress on the boat and crew.

Hope this adds to the discussion....
Richard

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Re: cutter revision
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2011, 12:19:18 PM »
The following post is on behalf of ALMA on the subject of Heavy Weather Sailing on the P323 (imported from Facebook)
I have a furler built in New Zealand called ReefRite. It uses a luff foil that accepts slides and has a gate to keep luff of the sail captured on deck. I've had my storm jib retrofitted with the KiWi Slides so I can quickly and EASILY change headsails at sea.

 If you can find a November SAIL Magazine you'll see a piece I wrote about sailing my 323 ALMA in gale conditions from Atlantic City to Cape MAy about 38 miles. With a double reef in the main and the storm jib rolled up two turns we were very comfortable and DRY. 7.3 knots for a good 15-20 minutes with not a squeak or groan. It takes courage to buy a furler no one has heard of and mine has given great service for 8 years.  ReefRite New Zealand!
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 12:33:59 PM by SeaFever »
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Captain Bri

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Re: cutter revision
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2011, 07:48:54 PM »
Here are some references from the web that may be pertinent to the discussion.  Terminology (such as solent stay) is not consistently used by the various sources.

From Practical Sailor:
� Storm jib on a staysail stay: This sail sets on an inner forestay that runs parallel to the headstay, usually attaching at the top spreader and well aft of the headstay. It can be removable and almost always requires running backstays to support the mast. Retrofitting can be expensive and require significant deck reinforcement.
� Storm jib on solent stay: This sail sets on a stay that leads from the masthead (or near it) to a fitting aft of the headstay. Because it does not require running backstays, it can be cheaper than adding an inner forestay, but it still requires significant modification. The slot is usually too small for the stay to remain in place during tacking maneuvers. Some boats can make use of extra halyard fittings and hardware to accommodate a removable solent stay, further reducing costs.

From The S Group:
Adding a cutter stay to a masthead rig :
Option 1: The cutter stay is located 3-6% of the height of the foretriangle below the existing forestay. In this case, running backstays are not required to tension the cutter stay.
Option 2: The cutter stay is located more than 6% of the height of the foretriangle below the existing forestay. In this case, running backstays are necessary. The forestay fitting should be fitted within 1000 mm of the spreaders, with the running backstays preferably 300-500 mm above.
     
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 10:20:33 PM by admin »
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stardog

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Re: cutter revision
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2011, 09:28:52 AM »
in all my years of following forums i have never seen a more researched and thoruogh  investigation of a topic .
my greatest appreciation  to both seafever and libations  for there expert feedback .i will certainly consider  all of these recomendations .
thanks
stardog