Author Topic: P323 Dinette Table Clamping Bracket  (Read 9082 times)

m_boone

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P323 Dinette Table Clamping Bracket
« on: September 09, 2020, 12:27:06 PM »
Hi Everyone,

The dinette table on Blue Sky will not stay in place after fully clamping the bracket (trying to think the proper name of this bracket - clamping bracket?) so I took the table, pole and mounting hardware home to take a look at it. The first thing I noticed was that the bracket's aluminum threads were history. I'm always surprised when I see threads cut into aluminum, especially for something that holds as much weight and gets worked as much as the dinette table. I think that they should have used stainless or brass threaded inserts. I'm sure that the threaded aluminum bracket worked fine for many years in most cases but after 40 years, I don't think threaded aluminum parts hold up well. However, everything else looks good after 40 years!


Notice the stripped threads and the damage around the hole from people trying to clamp the table down hard.

After looking at the mounting bracket closer, I noticed a plastic sleeve within the aluminum clamping bracket. The plastic sleeve becomes worn after years of table movement and clamping and because of this, Blue Sky's table will not hold fast when fully clamped. It's a natural reaction to tighten the table bolt even tighter when the table wont stay put but that's how the aluminum threads get stripped.



My first idea was to turn the plastic sleeve around where the top would, theoretically, be less worn than the bottom. However, I couldn't pull the plastic sleeve all of the way out from the bottom and I didn't want to remove the clamping bracket from the table in order to remove the plastic sleeve from the top. So, I used what I think is called gaffer's tape (cloth material tape) around the bottom of the outside of the plastic sleeve. I overlapped the tape in some places. Once back in the clamping bracket, the tape decreased the inside diameter of the plastic sleeve. That seemed to work.

The next hurdle was how to clamp the bracket to the pole. Blue Sky did not have the table bolt when I bought her so I had to think of something else as others have mentioned in this forum. My solution was to use a quick-release bicycle seat clamp and it works perfectly as far as I'm concerned.





The preliminary test results look good.








« Last Edit: September 09, 2020, 06:54:16 PM by m_boone »

m_boone

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Re: P323 Dinette Table Clamping Bracket
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2020, 06:17:29 PM »
I've just re-read SailRxSin's "table post" thread and according to Selene's post, P323's may have had different mounting systems. His uses a quick-release pin.

rnebergall

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Re: P323 Dinette Table Clamping Bracket
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2020, 07:15:31 PM »
To confirm, Zufrieden (hull 344) has a quick-release pin as well. 

Happily, looks like you've hit upon a good solution.

selene

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Re: P323 Dinette Table Clamping Bracket
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2020, 11:44:32 AM »
Selene has both quick release pin and clamp.
I really like your bike clamp idea!
When I am next on Selene I'll take a pic. the quick release pin works well, taking most of the weight and holding the table in position. The clamp is purely to stop the residual movement. With no pin, I can easily see how the clamp threads would get stripped.
Nice job....

m_boone

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Re: P323 Dinette Table Clamping Bracket
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2020, 05:13:47 PM »
To confirm, Zufrieden (hull 344) has a quick-release pin as well. 

Happily, looks like you've hit upon a good solution.

Thanks rnebergall. Blue Sky's hull number is 104 so quite a bit earlier than Zufrieden.

m_boone

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Re: P323 Dinette Table Clamping Bracket
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2020, 05:26:20 PM »
Selene has both quick release pin and clamp.
I really like your bike clamp idea!
When I am next on Selene I'll take a pic. the quick release pin works well, taking most of the weight and holding the table in position. The clamp is purely to stop the residual movement. With no pin, I can easily see how the clamp threads would get stripped.
Nice job....

Thanks Selene. Your description clears up a lot confusion on my part. I have yet to put a lot of weight on the table to see if it holds so I may have to figure out more of a solution. The release pin sounds like Pearson's solution to the earlier design.

T_schlueter

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Re: P323 Dinette Table Clamping Bracket
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2020, 09:10:21 AM »
Is it tight enough to keep the table from spinning?
New owner of "project boat"

m_boone

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Re: P323 Dinette Table Clamping Bracket
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2020, 05:21:42 PM »
Is it tight enough to keep the table from spinning?

Hi T_schlueter,

Good question. I wanted to find out the answer so I recruited my daughter to help. The answer depends, of course, on how much force you apply to the table's edge but I was happy to find out it does remain in place with an unmeasured but reasonable amount of force. You have to push pretty hard to get it to turn. If someone fell into it, however, I have no doubt it would turn. Here is a picture of it at an angle supporting the table's weight. I could spin the pole 360 degrees and the table would stay in that position relative to the pole.



Here's a picture with maybe 25lbs on it and it is snug in place. It's hard to see but the beaker is full of water.

« Last Edit: September 14, 2020, 05:57:50 PM by m_boone »

T_schlueter

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Re: P323 Dinette Table Clamping Bracket
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2020, 07:46:28 PM »
I've got to tighten mine up. I'll try that quick release bicycle axle trick.
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Dolce_Vita

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Re: P323 Dinette Table Clamping Bracket
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2020, 11:28:37 AM »
When we bought Dolce Vita, the "ear" of the tightening clamp had been sheared off.  Some previous owner (there have been eight!) had through-drilled the collar and post together and inserted a bolt and a wing nut.  This works, but has some drawbacks. 

1) He drilled it slightly crooked, so the table doesn't sit square.
2) He drilled a second hole up high for the storage position, but we never use it there because its too much hassle to reposition this way.
3) Having the table hard-tied to the post is not desireable because repeated pulling and falling into it transmits all the torque to the pole, which causes the overhead pole screws to loosen and back out.  I think I'd rather have it slip on a good hit.
@(^.^)@  Ed
1977 P-323 #42 "Dolce Vita"
with rebuilt Atomic-4

m_boone

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Re: P323 Dinette Table Clamping Bracket
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2020, 05:43:41 PM »
I've got to tighten mine up. I'll try that quick release bicycle axle trick.

If your bolt and threads are okay so that you can fully clamp it down and the table is still loose, then I don't think changing to a quick release clamp is going to help you. You may need to do what I did and take the table out and shim the plastic sleeve so that it grabs more when tightened.

Also, I used a bicycle seat clamp not an axle clamp.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002MKLLF4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

m_boone

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Re: P323 Dinette Table Clamping Bracket
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2020, 05:51:24 PM »

3) Having the table hard-tied to the post is not desireable because repeated pulling and falling into it transmits all the torque to the pole, which causes the overhead pole screws to loosen and back out.  I think I'd rather have it slip on a good hit.

Good point! It could also cause more of an injury if someone fell into it and it didn't give way.

Alma

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Re: P323 Dinette Table Clamping Bracket
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2020, 12:38:46 PM »
There is nothing wrong with threads cut into aluminum. My Porsche 911 engine has threads cut into Magnesium and that is far softer than AL. They have survived heat cycles, and 7300 RPM for 50 years. They do strip though- often from ham-hammered 'technicians' in a hurry.

The fix is straightforward.

First cut-up some Stella beer cans to make some shim material. The cans already have some circular shape so they will take to the inside of the AL casting easily. The tall little Stella cans closely match the size of the plastic insert. The can shim goes between the casting and plastic NOT between the plastic and pole. I used Molson cans long ago but sadly Molson no longer distributes cans in my region.

Then have someone with the tools and experience install a Heli-coil into the damaged casting and have a suitable handle made from Stainless Steel rod (or shoulder bolt with a nut) with a bend for grip made as originally installed. You will want a stainless steel washer on the handle to prevent galling of the casting where the steel bottoms.



This was one of the very first fixes on ALMA 25 years ago and it has worked flawlessly since.

It is common sense to tighten the handle only as much as needed to secure the table. Do not expect to lock the table from turning- That is not the design intent of the system. In fact a slight rotation of the table is OK once tightened. That comes in handy to tilt the corner out of the fairway between the companionway and forward to Head and Vee-berth.

This handle also serves to hang a jacket or other temporary need when it points up after a short break-in period. Once broken-in, stop tightening when the handle points up. It should last a long time at that position.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 01:06:20 PM by Alma »

m_boone

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Re: P323 Dinette Table Clamping Bracket
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2020, 09:26:13 PM »
"...They do strip though- often from ham-hammered 'technicians' in a hurry".

Haha! I had to look up "ham-hammered"


"The fix is straightforward.

First cut-up some Stella beer cans to make some shim material".
I like the idea of a couple of Stella's over gaffing tape. : )

Then have someone with the tools and experience install a Heli-coil into the damaged casting and have a suitable handle made from Stainless Steel rod (or shoulder bolt with a nut) with a bend for grip made as originally installed. You will want a stainless steel washer on the handle to prevent galling of the casting where the steel bottoms.
This, I agree, is the proper way to fix your Pearson saloon table. As well as adding the release pin that Selene has. One could put a whole case of Molson's on it then.

This was one of the very first fixes on ALMA 25 years ago and it has worked flawlessly since.

I read an article the other day that said "Bad boats don't grow old" and it made me think of Blue Sky and all the great Pearson boats still sailing today. Cheers!
 
This handle also serves to hang a jacket or other temporary need when it points up after a short break-in period. Once broken-in, stop tightening when the handle points up. It should last a long time at that position.

Nice cabintop! Did you laminate the Formica to wood panels or are they single sheets of Formica? Also, how did you hide Alma's antenna cable? Very tidy.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 11:05:06 PM by m_boone »

Alma

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Re: P323 Dinette Table Clamping Bracket
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2020, 09:51:15 PM »
I used to have a commercial photo studio and we used laminate instead of the rolls of paper one sees in some studios for product photography backgrounds (sweeps). The paper was always a problem with ripples, stains and creases.

The laminate lasted forever.

So I have a lifetime supply of 4X8 sheets I've almost gone through with shop projects.

Yes I laminated it with old-school contact cement to the old thin plywood panels that previously had been vinyl wrapped. Using a router to trim the edges isn't difficult with the special cutter with the ball bearing guide.

If I didn't have the material in stock I'd buy the thinner material available for the sides of cabinetry instead of the heavier counter-top version. Every ounce above the keel matters!

I'd also likely skip the plywood and just use the lightweight laminate alone. Be careful it will cut you like a chainsaw!

You'll find some of the wood screws will have lost their grip so a wooden match stick or rolled up sliver of WaWa bag will make them grip again.

ALMA's antenna cable is the thicker version (RG213?) and it goes down the mast and exits through a hole in the side of the mast along with the spreader, bow and masthead light wiring. It ends 2 feet later under the mast wiring terminal strip into a junction barrel connector to the the radio side of the cable. It isn't in the coachroof interior at all. Our FM radio antenna is a expensive but close-out purchased antenna that is inside tape that is stuck under the side deck right forward of the Nav Station.

PS- Since you're near me in Philly I can install that Heli Coil for you. I'm in Cherry Hill.

PPS- My table's pole has a hole drilled below where the table's bracket ends and there is a bolt that acts as a safety stop should the table try to fall. The bolt is the same as a bolt used to hold a dodger frame to its foot bracket. You can see the silver bolthead just under the casting in the photo-




« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 10:13:43 PM by Alma »