Pearson Yachts Forum

Pearson Boats - Common Systems => Deck Mounted Hardware => Topic started by: selene on August 08, 2013, 11:38:50 AM

Title: Traveler
Post by: selene on August 08, 2013, 11:38:50 AM
I'm not too happy about the standard P323 traveler setup - awkward to use, always seem to be pulling from the wrong side - and was wondering if anybody has tried any alternate ways to rig it.

I have what I think is the standard layout, double block on either side, block with fiddle on the car.  The blocks on the car started disintegrating a year ago, so I replaced them.   Now the double blocks (sheaves) are falling apart.  So since I now have to replace those, I was wondering anybodyy has figured out a better way to rig things.

One idea I had was to rotate the double blocks 90degrees, so the line tails to the stern...I have also seen boats with cam cleats on the car, which is a feasible mod.

Just starting my research - somebody has to have thought about this before!

Thanks....

Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: Frayed Knot on August 10, 2013, 01:47:47 PM
http://www.rigrite.com/Travellers/NF_Travellers/NF610.html#NF%20610%20Traveller%20Control%20Ends

Rigrite has the blocks you might like but I think they are about $200.00 each.  Part # NF6612R and NF6612L for Nicro Fico track.  When I can afford it I will be going that way.  Now all I have is cleats to lash to. I got this info from an earlier post from Dolice Vita...
Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: selene on August 11, 2013, 12:27:36 PM
Interesting - they pull towards the stern, which is what I was also thinking.  But instead of paying $200 each, U was considering rotating the double blocks 90 degrees, and moving the cam clear a few inches astern in line with the block (instead of above, where they are now).  I may mock this up by temporarily gluing a cleat in that position, and see of it gets in the way.

Also rather intimidated by pulling the entire track to install those NF fittings...but very much appreciate the pic, it's another option worth considering.
Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: Dolce_Vita on August 12, 2013, 11:09:12 AM
It should not be necessary to pull the track to install these.  The end caps on the track are hard rubber, and are held in place by a press-fit pin.  You should be able to force a pair of needle-nose pliers past the rubber to grasp the pin and wiggle it out, and then slide the end cap off the track.

Rig-Rite also has a mechannically equivilent assembly that replaces the end caps (NF 16261), with a double-block and optional cleat arrangement (NF 16469A), but together they are about $300 apiece last I checked!

http://www.rigrite.com/Travellers/NF_Travellers/NF610.html
Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: selene on August 15, 2013, 01:59:51 PM
Well, I like the idea for the end caps, but at $300 apiece, plus the cam plates (16469), there would probably not be a lot of change from $700.

Harken have double turning blocks for around $70.  If I move the cam cleats aft (with a solid backing plate) I have something functionally very similar to the end caps for 20% of the cost.  More holes in be boat, and messes up the jibsheet "bag" I have in that position (which I don't use anyway).  Well, still thinking about it...my sheaves will probably last a few more weeks...
Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: Dolce_Vita on August 15, 2013, 02:04:58 PM
The conversion "kit" that RigRite sells has a pair each of the double end-blocks, cam bracket, cam cleat, and traveler block with becket and attached spliced control line for $600 total.
Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: selene on November 10, 2013, 05:26:14 PM
Some things never come easy....

An update on my traveller ponderings, in case anybody has any bright ideas...

The NF-16261 is 1/2" too big (on Selene); I'd need to cut the track to make it fit. I *think* the NF-16261 could work, but it is expensive, and uses up track space - not a lot, but I want as much traveller movement as possible. So before I dropped $500-$600 with RigRite, I thought I would look around.

Lewmar have a really nice looking setup which would give a 5:1 advantage, instead of the current 3:1, with the lines running back to the traveller; BUT installing in the current position may not be possible; for starters, it is not clear of the Lewmar track can be bent...I have a call in to them.  And then, as you know, the traveller rail fits in a recess, so it would be a tight fit for the car...yes, I could move the traveller, or put spacers underneath it, but I don't like that option.  Another wacky option is to bolt the lexmar track on top of the original NF track; if that would work, $370 for an entirely new complete traveller setup...hmmm...

Next stop - Garhauer. They will custom make/bend a traveller.  We'll see what they recommend....but I may end up where I started, with two $70 harken blocks, and the original traveller setup!



Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: rbrtfeld on November 10, 2013, 08:08:10 PM
Garhauer is a great company and their customer service is outstanding. If they need to look and measure the traveler on the 323, let them know they are welcome to look at my boat in San Pedro,CA. Good Luck. Their Block are great as well. I just bought a couple of blocks from Mark with Gahhauer at the Long Beach Boat show. They have cool stuff.
Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: popeye323 on November 13, 2013, 09:57:32 PM
Hi All

New to the board but a long time 323 owner. Many years ago I replaced the traveler on my 323 with a traveler and block set up made by Harken, sold by my local marine supplier. I removed the original track and they bent one to the exact length and curvature of the original. The adjusting lines trail aft and the cars each have 4 rollers. ( I don't remember the ratio) The system works great. At the time I did it 1993, I think it cost me about $900 for all the hardware. I installed it myself which was not too difficult just time consuming to get under the old one and unbolt it.

Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: Rusty Pelican on November 14, 2013, 08:33:41 AM
Please post photos when you get a chance.
Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: selene on March 11, 2014, 12:01:19 PM
FWIW: A quick update (in case anybody is interested!) 

- I rejected the RigRite approach, as it would have cost almost as much as a new traveller but I would end up with an old traveller which now worked.

- I also rejected the lower-cost approach, as I wasn't happy with the mechanical advantage, or the placement of the turning blocks and cleats.  I spent a while toying around with alternatives, but reluctantly decided it would still be like putting lipstick on a pig - the turning blocks would be improved, but the traveller car is definitely 1980s technology.

- Harken looked like it would work and be very sweet, but was very expensive (about 2x the alternatives).

- Lewmar said the old Ocean series would work, some are still available, but it's being discontinued.  I would also have to bend the track myself, which means after it was anodized, risking (inevitable) cracking of the anodizing.

- Garhauer were very helpful on the phone (Guido), looks like it will fit, and they will custom bend (then anodize). Around $750. Even promised the bolt holes would line up with the originals...so that's the way I went, fingers crossed.  The only catch is that the process takes around ~4 weeks, so I won't be sailing for a while.

The old track (currently in the hands of USPS) was straightforward to remove - end caps popped off, then  8 bolted screws each side (as I recall), silicon sealant so gentle prying to remove...

I'll take photos and update you in (hopefully) a month or so.
Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: Dolce_Vita on March 12, 2014, 11:35:45 AM
FWIW: A quick update (in case anybody is interested!) ...

Thanks for the update.  I'm definitely interested, as my traveler arrangement is even poorer than yours, with only a 2:1 advantage, no turning block, and the (horizontal) cam cleat mounted down in the recess, making it very difficult to cleat.

Between the friction of using the line-guide as a turning eye,  and the 2:1 ratio, the admiral can't raise the traveler very far when going to windward.  Every time, she reminds me "You've got to fix this!"
Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: selene on March 17, 2014, 08:22:05 PM
Ed, thanks for clearing up a mystery for me - I still have the small eye strap, and wondered what it was for. It also explains why the track ends about 5" from the cockpit sides (to squeeze in the cam cleat!).  I am guessing that was the original setup.

An easy (and relatively inexpensive) upgrade is what I had.  Add a single turning block with becket to the traveller car - e.g the NF610 block with becket (I may end up with a couple of new ones spare...), and then double turning blocks on both cockpit sides.  It ups the advantage from 2:1 to 3:1, making it more manageable; the cost would be about $70 each for the double blocks (e,g, Harken Double Upright Lead Bullet Block).  That seemed adequate for most conditions; you can see my old setup in one of the photos.  However, in my case cleating upwards did not work well for me, as unless you are sitting on the winch (uncomfortable) or are putting your body in line with the mainsheet car (that could hurt) you tend to pull from the side - which trashes the sheaves.

Why am I looking at changing? In summer, winds here are generally 20-25 knots, often above.  With the existing setup I could tune the traveller in those higher winds, but it was not easy.  The disintegration of the old Delrin sheaves is what started me on this path. In addition to more mechanical advantage, modern travellers use new-fangled things called ball-bearings - which I am told take a lot of friction out of the system! So we'll see if the Garhauer setup works better than what I have now.

I'll keep you all posted...
Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: Dolce_Vita on March 18, 2014, 03:07:39 PM
Curiously, my blocks on the traveler already have the beckets, they're just unused!

I had been thinking of mounting a double block stack in the recess on a base to raise it up in line with the travler, and relocating the cam-cleat onto the top surface of the seat, leading aft.  But it puts a lot of cantelever load on the base of the stack.  I think I like your coaming mounted solution better. With suitable backing, and the cam leading aft instead of up, it is a better solution.
Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: selene on April 26, 2014, 08:47:45 PM
Okay, so you asked for it...still awaiting sea trials, but otherwise

The new Garhauer traveller arrived after about 5 weeks - each track is custom made (machined, drilled, bent) then anodised, which is what takes the time.  I sent them my old track to ensure a perfect match, and they are as good as their word - the holes lined up perfectly, the curve was good, so installation was relatively smooth.  The car itself is a lot beefier than the original, and well machined - it was very satisfying watching it move freely from one side of the track to the other with a gently push - the old traveller barely moved. You can see a comparison of the new and old traveller in the first photo.  The second shows the end caps, and the third the full assembly. Overall quality appears excellent.  I'll report back after a few hours sailing, but overall it looks like a very promising route for replacing the original setup.  The cost was around $800 by the time new line was factored in.
Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: Alma on April 27, 2014, 08:21:51 PM
That is sweet! My original mainsheet broke at the joint where the mainsheet and cam attach to the traveler car. It happened on a calm day while motoring. I saw the boom swing to port and WT...

Then I realized the mainsheet hardware had parted! The day before we were on a spirited sail in the ocean and it seemed fine! That's good Karma for sure.

The attachment point is a stainless steel pin about the size of an 8-32 screw! It's spooky.

I really like that Garhauler setup. They make nice gear and their customer service is fantastic.

Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: Dolce_Vita on April 27, 2014, 10:51:08 PM
Beautiful result!  And I like the "port & stbd" red/green lines! Nice touch.

The whole unit looks solid & bulletproof.  Hope the sea trials go well.

Now that Garhauler has done one for a 323, what are the chances that they retained the measurements and could roll out additional ones on order without requiring the original track to work from?
Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: Vantage on April 28, 2014, 01:27:56 PM
Beautiful result!  And I like the "port & stbd" red/green lines! Nice touch.

The whole unit looks solid & bulletproof.  Hope the sea trials go well.

Now that Garhauler has done one for a 323, what are the chances that they retained the measurements and could roll out additional ones on order without requiring the original track to work from?

I was able to order the exact same set up from Garhauer based on Selene's order. It took them a day to find the specs. I ordered traveller/track system, new main sheet system, boom vang, e-z Glide Adjustable Genoa system and swivel jammer, and bunch more hardware.

I ordered about 2 1/2 weeks ago.

Craig
Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: selene on April 28, 2014, 06:09:12 PM
The mainsheet system will be interesting. FYI the model I ordered was the MT-2CT-TP. 

The traveller car is a tight fit in the recess - I rather held my breath (even though I had measured it half a dozen times), but it does fit with a bit over 1/8" clearance on each side.  Incidentally, I asked that the track be extended by 4" on each side compared to the original.  After the useful post from Dolce Vita on the original setup, I realised that the gap between the track and the cockpit sides was no longer necessary, and I wanted as long a run as possible, while still leaving a 1" gap for drainage.

I also ordered the 40-2 2-speed vang block for the mainsheet. Perhaps that will be a folly, we'll see; it does offer more mechanical advantage than the original, but has the added complexity of two lines to get used to. I may also want to add a sprint to help the bottom block "stand up" - we'll see.

When I recover from wallet shock (I also had to replace the Schaefer furler lower bearing, and am making my own "blade" foresail!!) I also have the Garhauer rigid boom vang on the list...

Darn that adjustable genoa system looks sweet.  It would mean I could adjust the jib car without standing in the water (it gets windy here in summertime) :-)

Paul
Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: Dave on May 06, 2014, 04:34:17 PM
That looks very nice and much more functional.

Has anyone researched moving the traveler and main sheet to the cabin top? I would like to eventually enclose the cabin and would prefer to have all of it out of the cabin.
Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: selene on May 07, 2014, 10:15:08 AM
Definitely doable - especially as the P323 has a relatively short boom, which has always seemed overbuilt to me (which I like), so the stresses on it would appear to be acceptable.

Garhauer manufacture travellers for Catalina, and we have a number of boats in our marina with similar travellers mounted on the cabin top, so I know that they could easily build one for you.  You may also want to look at the projects page on this site, as it has a description of a similar setup, complete with photos (http://www.pearson323.com/projects/traveler.pdf).  Overall it looks like a fairly straightforward mod.
Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: Dave on May 07, 2014, 10:07:50 PM
That is a nice mod. This is on my list of things to do. It will make winter sailing a lot nicer.
Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: Libations Too on May 12, 2014, 08:27:05 PM
Selene, a very nice job indeed!

As to moving the traveler to the cabin top on the 323 I think it has some real advantages, as other posters have noted. However, I also think it comes with some disadvantages, especially when sailing singlehanded and when in high or gusty winds. The original traveler and mainsheet control offers the advantage of quick and easy release or easing of the main. If you need to dump the main in order to maintain boat control in a gust or ease the main until the traveler can be adjusted the existing setup is great...and it can be accomplished while at the wheel as long as one has the mainsheet in one hand (singlehanded). It seems to me that a cabin top traveler with main sheet winch and rope clutch arrangement on the cabin top would be a problem for a singlehanded sailor...unless one has a trustworthy, below-deck autopilot so that your "helm" position is forward of the wheel. My wheel pilot works great most of the time but when in close quarters with other boats and in high or gusty winds I tend to hand steer and I find that having the mainsheet in my hand for quick release is important.
Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: Vantage on May 13, 2014, 10:08:27 AM
My original intent was to move the traveler to the cabin top and use a mid boom sheeting arrangement. The cost of using Garhauer equipment was not significantly more than the just replacing the existing traveler configuration as I did. But in the end I decided to leave the design as Bill Shaw intended. I also left the halyard winches on the mast and the reefing system alone for the same reason. Replacing worn out equipment is one thing, but design changes need to be considered very carefully. Just my opinion. Mac
Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: Alma on May 14, 2014, 10:09:06 AM
I agree with leaving stock (but improved) traveler and boom hardware as designed. What about the old traveler? We know the loads on mid sheeted booms are much higher than ours with the associated safety concerns. Would new mid-boom hardware foul the dodger?

I believe I've seen mid-boom retrofits on a 323. We're lucky that our coachroof is strong to begin with and the underside accessible for the reinforcement that would be necessary. What is the up-side of concentrating and transferring the sheeting loads to the coachroof? I see myself tripping over a recently added traveler rail inches above the coachroof where I used to glide back into the cockpit. That's a nasty face-plant four feet below...

I don't mind the fact that my ALMA doesn't have any lines led to the cockpit. I've seen problems with lines running through multiple turning blocks, "organizers" and stoppers when sailing on other yachts. I prefer simplicity and knowing what a line does before I adjust it. A line coming from the masthead to the mainsail halyard winch on the mast is pretty difficult to mistaken for a mainsheet or the outhaul. Not-so when a spagetti of lines terminate on the coachroof and a quick adjustment is necessary... Sure YOU may know what is what- but if a mate needs to act quickly it could result in the WRONG line loosened at just the worst moment.

All those turning blocks and "organizers" create friction that increases wear on the new hardware and the 40 year old hardware that now needs to double it's effort to accommodate improvements.

We are free to modify and change Bill Shaw's well thought out design at will.

The multitude of filled fastener holes where the now obsolete "space-age" hardware added by enthusiastic owners was removed from some 323's is a testament to "KISS".

Keep it Simple Sammy!

Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: selene on June 17, 2014, 08:43:12 PM
Quick update: Had the new Garhauer traveller for a few months now.  It is working *extremely* well so far. I was out in 20knots+ wind the other day with full main (testing new 80% blade!) - yet I could adjust the traveller with minimal effort, despite the heavy load.  With my old traveller that would not have been the case!  It tempts providence to be too effusive, but in short it is overbuilt yet works smoothly, and easy trimming of the traveller is enhancing my enjoyment of the boat!
Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: Sea Haven on August 22, 2014, 02:17:37 PM
Plan to visit with Garhauer Marine at the show in Newport in several weeks.

Looking to get a show price for the traveller right there!

However, have a question regarding ALMA's posting....

Quote
You'll need to reverse the midships hatch to open towards the stern to accommodate the vang.

Though I'm NOT going with a Vang, Rigid or otherwise, I am ordering a Boomkicker this weekend from Defender (on sale).
The PO set up a pig tail off the Back Stay as opposed to a topping lift, a real pita. Also, I'm not into rigging a TL to be honest. so the 'kicker seems good for me.
It obviously presents the same issue as a rigid vang.

Is it difficult to reverse the midships hatch? Though I never looked that closely at it's mounting, for some reason it gives me the impression of being a "press fit".

"Sub" Ed

Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: selene on August 22, 2014, 06:31:28 PM
Reversing the hatch is generally a relatively quick straightforward job, as (like many of the other fittings) a pretty basic silicon caulking was used to seal it.  There are some good descriptions on the site. 

Basically unscrew, gently pry off, clean off old caulking (tedious), rotate, and refit with either new caulking or butyl tape.

See http://www.pearson323.com/forum/index.php/topic,132.0.html
Title: Re: Traveller
Post by: Alma on August 25, 2014, 01:56:35 PM
Selene is correct. I mentioned the hatch only because of the frustration of reversing the hatch in lousy weather when installing the rigid vang. I've found the hatch flange rarely leaks. Nor does my 12 year old hatch gasket. My occasional leaks come when it is time to re-bed the plastic in the lid.

There is an outside chance the BoomKicker will clear the hatch with the Boomkicker's unique arc. Dry fit it before you mess with removing the hatch. You may find as we do, an aft facing hatch is nice. European boats do not have forward opening hatches at all. They are all aft facing so as not to be ripped away by a wave.

The Boom Kicker may not support the boom and your weight. That could be trouble in a seaway dropping sail.
I'd test and rely on a stout topping lift along with the 'Kicker.

My Gaurhauler rigid vang will support the boom (and me) without a topping lift. I needed to add a PVC pipe "spacer" within the telescoping section to insure the vang would stop the boom from falling all the way to the coachroof. Gaurhauler will provide extra springs to do the same thing but I was in a rush to finish.

I too have the line with snap shackle to the back stay. I also use a topping lift. When I replaced my wire to rope halyards I had the shop make me a hardy topping lift from one of the old halyards. I can bet my life on it when dropping sail off-shore alone. An experienced sailor told me the side load generated on the backstay from the snap shackle line is troublesome for the backstay. I'm not sure it is an issue. I do not use it for the boom but it is essential for my canopy and my backstay flagstaff.

I remove my topping lift completely while sailing and tie it to a cleat mounted on the backstay. That prevents chafe of the mainsail roach. I forgot it once before I had the rigid vang and my friend broke a rib under it when I "cut" the halyard.

"Thank God we didn't crack the coachroof- Your rib will heal"!

It was a nasty injury that bothered him almost a year!
Title: Re: Traveler
Post by: Trouttfish on May 14, 2018, 08:56:52 AM
I have remove my traveler, shipped it to Garhauer Marine in CA, and am now awaiting the arival of my new traveler which should come at the beginning of next month. Thank you all for the input about Garhauer. I’ll let you know how my install goes after I receive the new one!