Author Topic: Arches (not golden ones)  (Read 16520 times)

Wandering_bill

  • P323
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 32
  • Karma: 1
  • Hull #193 'Wanderer'
    • View Profile
Arches (not golden ones)
« on: October 02, 2013, 07:43:26 PM »
Has anyone installed an arch system on their 323? 

I really like the idea of having one to mount solar and use for davits but I can't seem to find any pictures of an arch on a 323.  So, if you've done it, please share a pic!

Thanks,
Bill
Www.sailingwanderer.com

Dolce_Vita

  • P323
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 563
  • Karma: 9
    • View Profile
    • S/V Dolce Vita
  • Model: P323
  • Vessel Name: Dolce Vita
  • City: Pasadena
  • State: MD
Re: Arches (not golden ones)
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2013, 11:37:27 AM »
Bill,

  I'd like to see that too.  This has been one of my "someday" projects for a while now. 
Last year, at the boat show, I looked at an inexpensive semi-kit from Atlantic Towers.

I'm really concerned with how that much weight will effect the boat trim, as she "squats" a lot already when underway.
@(^.^)@  Ed
1977 P-323 #42 "Dolce Vita"
with rebuilt Atomic-4

Sea Haven

  • Guest
Re: Arches (not golden ones)
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2013, 05:14:18 PM »
Ed,

Very interested as well.

I see Atlantic Towers WILL be at the Boat Show in Tent YB11 so let's put it on the list of "must see", which I'm in the process of making up lol.

"Sub" Ed

Almost forgot, we'll need dimensions. I may pull some this weekend. Mount to outboard side of the cockpit coaming somewhat fwd of the aft cleats?
Offset Sail Arch
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 05:41:04 PM by Sea Haven »

Libations Too

  • P323
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 115
  • Karma: 6
    • View Profile
  • City: Berkelely, CA
Re: Arches (not golden ones)
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2013, 03:01:32 AM »
My opinion only...but arches on a 323 don't make sense to me, especially combined with davits, dinghy, etc. The weight alone will make the 323 squat and the bow will be pointed at the sky.

I just finished a cruise where I added two kayaks on either side of the cockpit. I also have a Monitor wind vane and a solar panel at the stern; tools, batteries, stern anchor, and fenders/lines in the cockpit lockers. Just with these items at the stern I needed to fill the bow water tank, move my dinghy and two bags of sails to the v-berth, and restow my trays of SS nuts, bolts, screws and other parts to the bow to get the 323 back on her lines. I can't imagine what would happen if arches, davits, dinghy, outboard, etc. were added.

Again, my opinion only.
Richard

Sea Haven

  • Guest
Re: Arches (not golden ones)
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2013, 11:04:09 AM »
I find this VERY interesting you two are experiencing poor trim and are being affected that much.

Is this under power or at rest?

The Radar Arch by Atlantic Towers is stated to weigh less than a 100 lbs, which is much less much less than a person. I don't see it being much of a factor in itself. As I do plan to add radar, maybe a backup 6db VHF, WIFI Antenna, and use it as a better mount for my existing solar panels, I still don't see an added 150 lbs an issue.

I did "think" about Davits, which would add themselves, plus the ~125lb of my Portland Pudgy Dingy.
Perhaps I need rethink that! lol

The previous owner removed the FW Tank at the bow, so if anything I should be sitting bow up too.
But since I'm not, I'm curious now if I'll be stern up should I replace that 40(?) gal tank and fill it.

40 x ~8.35 lbs/Gallon = 334 lbs.

But any added weight compromises speed.

Like I said, interesting. I guess I have to have the Admiral always stay at the bow (DUCK!!).

"Sub" Ed


Libations Too

  • P323
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 115
  • Karma: 6
    • View Profile
  • City: Berkelely, CA
Re: Arches (not golden ones)
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2013, 11:33:26 AM »
It has been my observation (based on direct observation and on telltale waterline fouling) that the 323 definitely squats when under way, especially at higher speeds. But my comment above was based on static conditions at dock...simply a weight distribution phenomenon. My opinion, or concern, is based on the combined  affects of static and dynamic squatting.

I don't think this is unique to the 323 and probably doesn't really affect performance significantly. For me, and this applies to any boat, I just don't like the appearance of a partially submerged waterline at the stern and exposed bottom paint at the bow. I see many boats with arches, davits, dinghy, outboard, radar, solar panels, etc. (and a few people in the cockpit) all loaded at or astern of the cockpit and they lose their elegant grace and beauty and begin to look like a Winnebago or overloaded pickup truck. I know that I am exaggerating just a little but the impression is real, at least for me.
Richard

Sea Haven

  • Guest
Re: Arches (not golden ones)
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2013, 01:52:30 PM »
Understood, and agreed!
Be advised as I'm a relatively new owner to the 323 and am particularly sensitive to the "possible" negative aspects with her regards to ownership.
Again, not that this is negative, but nice to be aware of.

At times aesthetics is what it's all about, and not ONLY at the waterline.

I've seen boats over the years that appeared to have NASA Saturn-5 Launch Towers hanging off the stern.  NOT cool!

Now that I think about it, in the end I'll do either the tower, or Davit's, but not both.

Dolce_Vita

  • P323
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 563
  • Karma: 9
    • View Profile
    • S/V Dolce Vita
  • Model: P323
  • Vessel Name: Dolce Vita
  • City: Pasadena
  • State: MD
Re: Arches (not golden ones)
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2013, 03:35:29 PM »
My "squatting" is while underway, particularly under power at 6 kts and above.  Here on the Chesapeake, we have something called the "Chesapeake Bay Mustache", a brown stain that forms at the bow where the bow wave runs up onto the white gelcoat.  I get this brown staining at the stern too, at least 2/3 of the way from the normal waterline to the exhaust, showing how far the squatting goes.

I have the fwd water tank, and usually start a multi-day cruise with it full.

Sitting statically at the dock, the fore & aft trim is fine.  With all the gear loaded for a trip, I typically have about an inch of bottom paint showing, which is the way I like it.  Stays much cleaner at the waterline that way than if any of the bootstripe stays submerged.

My bigger problem statically is with the port-starboard trim.  It seems like all the heavy things (galley, icebox/refrigeration, batteries) are on the port side, and this is further worsened by the fact that my starboard water tank has a leak and I can't use it, while I always use the port tank.  The net result is a several-degree static list to port. 
@(^.^)@  Ed
1977 P-323 #42 "Dolce Vita"
with rebuilt Atomic-4

Libations Too

  • P323
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 115
  • Karma: 6
    • View Profile
  • City: Berkelely, CA
Re: Arches (not golden ones)
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2013, 03:50:05 PM »
Ed,

I have the same Port-Starboard trim problem that you described. Mine is further aggravated by the fact that my stern anchor and tool box are stowed in the Port cockpit locker. At dock, I also adjust the traveler so that the boom is pulled as far to Port as possible, clearing the companionway of main sheet. Typically all of this is somewhat offset by a full Starboard water tank and an empty Port water tank. But when loaded for a cruise, I usually fill the Port water tank also and draw from it first...so it takes a few days before I start to see trim that looks more "normal" to my eye.

As for that "mustache" I recently spent a couple weeks in the Santa Barbara Channel in southern California. There it is hard for me to tell if the oil is spilled oil or seep oil, since the area has a reputation for oil seeps near the surface. The net result is that Libations now has that rather unbecoming mustache that you mentioned.
Richard

Sea Haven

  • Guest
Re: Arches (not golden ones)
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2013, 05:27:38 PM »
Oh my!!

I believe I have a leak in my starboard tank as well!  I filled it at the dock, motored back to the mooring and I noticed at one point I hearing the bilge pump discharge. Back at the mooring the tank was empty lol!!

Go figure!

Haven't had the chance to fully investigate yet, but I was hoping it's just a hose clamp.

All things being equal, I list only about a 1/2 degree to port.

I haven't noticed the squatting under power, then again I've been babying her with my stuffing box issue.
There's that other 323 in my harbor. It's the one with that ugly Keel seepage that I looked to buy earlier this year I had mentioned as Nautilus. Jerry and Wendy's boat now(went over and introduced myself) , I'll take a closer look next time she steams by to see the squatting.

Overall little issues here and there, but loving this boat!! Plus, she keeps me busy!!

FWIW, Harbor flushes good enough with the tide we barely get the 'stache here. Long Islands South Shore is a different story!

Boy have we got a lot to talk about at Annapolis!! All good!!

Thanks guys!!

"Sub" Ed

Alma

  • P323
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 343
  • Karma: 10
    • View Profile
    • GeneSmithStudio
  • Model: P323
  • Vessel Name: ALMA
  • City: Forked River, NJ
  • State: NJ
Re: Arches (not golden ones)
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2013, 04:06:04 PM »
ALMA squats under power. We don't have the bow water tank or bow anchor platform that balances some 323s.

I made a shelf that rests on the hull's longitudinal ribs under the vee berth.
The shelf is thin plywood with an epoxied wood 1X1 stifiner on the bottom. It's triangular shape locates it within the vee section. Underneath I have my Flasher sail, on top is my heavy 100% jib, it's pennant and it's sheets. Both together weigh little compared to a tank full of fresh water. So we squat under power. Under sail we're nicely trimmed.

My port side water tank is new and there is a new panel I made where I cut out the old tank. I had time when I made it and I split the atom. It's all hidden under the sliding bunk board.

I really took a lot of time on the job and its very pretty and shipshape...

The new tank LEAKS! It's a beautiful welded poly tank made by a company that makes plastic parts for pharma companies and was expensive.
It's dimensions allow a higher top so taking the wedge shape into consideration I bet it's 26 gallons? A lot more than the standard 19 or so.

But it leaks! It's not possible to weld the plastic to the baffle with the "lid" on so once it was overfilled (I did it) it split the top seam. I took it back and they screwed it up again.
It'll hold it's capacity until we heel over then I get pretty sweet city water in my bilge...

I'm hoping to have a stainless one fabricated from the dimensions of this one- We'll see.

One thing's certain- I won't think of the starboard side's pan interior as being sacred much longer.
Without a trim busting bow tank I really need to take advantage of the additional space at the top of the settee cavity and fabricate another bigger tank for the starboard side.

I DO have a great ALLCRAFT all stainless round 12 gallon water heater in the lazzerette behind the nav station. The water heater and amidships the head, balance the galley and the standard battery bank. ALMA sits straight up.

I'm not a fan of bladder tanks so if anyone wants to go in and get a few port and starboard tanks fabricated from thin stainless steel I'd be interested in trying to get a volume discount.
I have the dimensions for the port side. I'd need to make a drawing of the starboard side.






Now or Never!

  • P323
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 41
  • Karma: 1
    • View Profile
  • Model: P323
  • Vessel Name: Now or Never!
  • City: Brunswick
  • State: GA
Re: Arches (not golden ones)
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2013, 07:59:26 AM »
I have installed an arch on Now or Never!.  I had it made in Kentucky.  Powder coated aluminum pipe.  The primary reason for the arch is 2 solar panels, but I also strap other articles to it; dinghy oars, folding chairs, fishing pole.  I agree that davits do not make much sense.  I will post pix as soon as I can.

Wandering_bill

  • P323
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 32
  • Karma: 1
  • Hull #193 'Wanderer'
    • View Profile
Re: Arches (not golden ones)
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2014, 01:45:41 PM »
Went ahead and installed an arch on Wanderer

Ended up going with the "uni-arch" that comes flat packed and you assemble yourself. It's 2" schedule 40 aluminum, and seems very strong. I've crawled on top of it and it didn't budge. Installations as a little tricky to get it shimmed level on the coamings. The boat is not symmetrical (surprise!), but we were able to get it fitted in and didn't have to change the pushpit which I had feared.

Will be mounting solar, shade, and maybe some davit bars to it. Here are some photos. You can also see my propane tank addition in these pics too.
Www.sailingwanderer.com

Wandering_bill

  • P323
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 32
  • Karma: 1
  • Hull #193 'Wanderer'
    • View Profile
Re: Arches (not golden ones)
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2014, 01:49:32 PM »
Oh, and I have not noticed any additional squatting or changes to the waterline. The arch only weighs around 80lbs. It I end up hanging the dinghy and outboard back there, maybe I'd see some, but she seems pretty balanced.
Www.sailingwanderer.com

Dave

  • P323
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 51
  • Karma: 3
  • P323 hull #376
    • View Profile
  • Model: P323
Re: Arches (not golden ones)
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2014, 04:01:18 PM »
What is the purpose of having the arch that far forward?
Dave

adventurer, ex-hippy, good timer, (crook? quite possibly), manic self-publicist, terribly bad at personal relationships, often thought to be completely out to lunch