Author Topic: Fixed ports won't come out ???  (Read 9829 times)

Blue Heron

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Fixed ports won't come out ???
« on: March 16, 2013, 06:03:40 PM »
Hi all,

We are trying to get our fixed ports out of the cabin sides to re-bed them, and the inside aluminum trim ring came off easily, but the actual window frame will not come out. We were able to get a putty knife all around the outside bezel, and I don't think that sealant is holding in. It is just loose enough that we can push it out in most spots about 1/8" from the cabin top, but that is it. Does anyone know if these frames are supposed to just push out from the inside? It almost seems as if the inside of the frame has a lip on it that won't allow it to push out (but we really can't see what the problem is).

Anyone have experience with this?

Thanks,

Chet

selene

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Re: Fixed ports won't come out ???
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2013, 12:25:58 PM »
I just rebedded one of ours.

When the factory installed them, they used double-sided foam tape.  Clearly not the ideal bedding material.  Now here comes the kicker: Because the initial bedding was not the greatest, owners often "fixed" the problem by injecting various substances to prevent leaks.  We were lucky - my PO used silicon caulk.  I have heard of people using 5200.

In my case (1980), it was definitely a 2-person job.  having got the putty knife around the outside bezel, a buddy pushed form the inside.  I could then cut off more of the caulking from the outside; in a couple of places I was inside, scraping and loosening inside. I also had a very fine-bladed metal "pry bar" (about 6" long in total), which I used to gently help prying the frame out.  It took a while, but eventually it popped out. So persevere....gently!

One other tip: I removed all the silicon/tape, cleaned, decided to fill the void between the cabin top and liner with thickened epoxy, etc.  Readt for the refit - easy, right? But made a total hash of reassembling the glass into the frame. Got the Dow-Corning 795 everywhere!  Too little, it leaks...too much=big mess! But the cleanup was not bad; mineral spirits worked wonders, and closer to the gasket I used a plastic "chisel" sold by West Marine for mixing epoxy.

Why the mess? What I also learned:
- The glass (port fwd) is not totally symmetrical.  Mark it before you disassemble! You should have seen me and my buddy flipping and reversing gooey glass until the got it right, so the frame would close. What threw me is that the tempered glass is outside and upside down on mine...no it didn't work the other way
- The two frame pieces could not be closed manually.  Well, not by us, anyway. The tight new gasket, plus the 795, makes for a gratifyingly snug fit.  I ended up using two clamps and their very gentle pressure to bring the halves together, which turned out painless and worked well.  Luckily I had clamps to hand.

Finally, FWIW, I did not use the caulking supplied by Catalina Direct (actually, I did not use the decorative plastic liner either, as it would not match the other windows).  I have been using butyl tape in a number of places, and am pleased with the results so far.

Some useful reference sites:
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/butyl_tape
http://www.sailingseadragon.com/Ports.htm (second half)

Good luck! It's a good feeling when it is done, and the old girl stays dry....

Blue Heron

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Re: Fixed ports won't come out ???
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2013, 12:20:54 PM »
Tanks for the tips! On our boat, the liner cut-out is so close fit to the frame that we actually have to trim it a little bigger all the way around the frame. And the scary part is, it almost looks like we might have to trim the actual cabin as well. I know it sounds impossible...let's face it, fiberglass doesn't shrink, and they had to push those frames through those cut-outs when they built the boat. Ours is definetely getting hung up on the fiberglass. It just wont fit through there without removing some additional material. The whole frame is loose enough to slide in and out about 1/2", but, when we push out on the frame it stops with a decided "thunk"...it seems to be hitting solid fiberglass.

We are working on the port aft, but I will make it a point to mark the glass so I keep the same orientation in the frame....thanks again!

Chet

Alma

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Re: Fixed ports won't come out ???
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2013, 01:44:13 PM »
Yes- It seems they can't fit through the cabinsides. When the boat was built the installers would let the channel in the port extrusions ride down into the cabin's port aperture and then slip the top in too. You'll need to get all the adhesion of previous calk taken care of and then make sure all the calk is removed so the cabin side will fit down into the ports channel in the extrusion.

For a better-than-new job, shim the gaps between the cabin side and hull liner to match the biggest existing width dimension. This insures an even fit for the ports inner clamps to operate correctly. Add thickened epoxy to the gaps and bond the cabin to the liner. I used matchsticks for the spots where the distance was too small. After the epoxy cures pull the sticks and fill again the remaining holes with more thickened epoxy.  This gives a nice solid, even and crush-proof aperture to mount your ports into. After I did this I ground the apertures to fit the ports extrusions without tucking them down into the frame extrusion. This made a perfect mate between the boat and the port. I used simple Home Depot 20 year silicone calk and that was 12 years ago. Today hatchmakers sell a Butyl Bedding that I haven't used but many pros use. http://www.newfoundmetals.com/catalog/pg09.html Dry fit the ports and mask around them. If you are thinking of painting your "Bandit Stripe" now is the time to do it. Remember the boat cabin has a camber and the glass frames do NOT! You'll want to allow for this with your calk of choice. Let the middle of the port be close and use enough calk to fill the distance between the flange and boat at the ends where the brittle glass cannot follow the contour of the cabin roof. Not a leak since.

Be sure to check the port's plastic gasket that seals the glass to the frame. It or a suitable substitute is available from a local storm-door fab and install company. The frames are held together by small aluminum brackets and self tapping screws. Be careful not to bend the frames while dissembling them. Replace the gaskets and you should have a decade of no leaks from these frames. Many leaks are from the gaskets and NOT the caulk. Don't go through all the work and get a leak from a 30 year old gasket. Remember to install gasket so the joint of the gasket is in the TOP of the finished frame. Laying out the gaskets and letting them settle overnight or more from being wound-up on a roll helps them take the shape you need.

Good luck and Good night's sleep without drips from these gaskets (and frames)!

Blue Heron

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Re: Fixed ports won't come out ???
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2013, 10:20:25 PM »
AHHH....That all makes perfect sense!!! Thanks for the detailed response. Your description really creates a good visual.

Chet

Blue Heron

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Re: Fixed ports won't come out ???
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2013, 07:12:13 PM »
Well, we got the fixed port out, but believe it or not we had to relief cut the liner and the cabin to do it. We used one of those oscillating tools, and did a nice job.

Also, we just bought the window repair kit from Catalina Direct, for a C-22.

The kits all have the same size vinyl glazing channel and frame channel, the only difference is the length of the seals and the amount of caulking you get.

We decided not to use the 3m 4200 that comes with the kit, and opted instead to use some butyl tape I had left over from a Catalina window project that I did 15 years ago. The butyl was fine after we peeled about 6 feet off the roll (the tape was not coming off clean).

As far as seating the glass into the frame, it was a real bear to squeeze the frame together once we put a small bead of silicone inside the vinyl glazing channel AND a bead into the aluminum frame channel. It did finally go together but it took everything we had to close that frame.

Anyway, it's nice and tight now, looks good, and it's one less thing to worry about.

Chet